The rear leg

NoonTime said:

Hey Wellphyt,
Still hoping you and/or jbooth will follow up on the questions posed to you here:
http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-hitting-technical/12372-rear-leg-14.html#post146500

Cheers,
NoonTime

Click to expand...

NoonTime, I'm not purposely trying to ignore you. I just don't think answering your question is relevant to teaching hitting. If you are asking if I've ever experimented with trying to INternally Rotate the femur of my rear leg while in my stance; yes I have. I've experimented with everything you can think of.

It sounds like you are going down the "Battle in the Rear Hip Socket" path. Good luck with that. I don't subscribe to that theory. Jbooth has tried to explain to you over at Baseball-Fever why it's anatomically not possible to have a battle in the rear hip socket, but you and others just blew him off.

The other popular view on the various hitting boards is the idea that the "rear leg turns the still coiled hip forward". It sounds like you along with most others on the various hitting boards have accepted this idea as scientific fact. I don't agree with that idea either, at least as I understand the concept as it's been explained.

As I see it, there are two differing views as to the role of the rear leg. One view says that the rear leg turns the knee down and forward and sucks/drags the rear hip forward. The other says that the rear hip gets in a position on top of the rear leg, drives the rear knee down and forward using the butt muscles, and pulls the rear foot off of the ground.

The first view says that the rear leg and knee folding under the rear hip causes the rear hip to turn forward. The second view says that the rear hip is the driver. I believe that the rear hip uses the rear leg to leverage the ground to weight shift. The role of the rear leg is to remain firm and not leak any pressure. You don' want a rocket launching pad to collapse until after the rocket has started to lift off.

I believe the hips clear in a more anatomically correct way by dual EXternal Rotation. Watch the golf clips and article I posted. Watch Hamilton's, Pujols', Trout's etc back foot. The information is all right there.

Maybe the Utley clip will help when I get into that.....

Wellphyt said:

Save this clip to your computer so that you can open it up in QuickTime.

I will point something out later regarding the back leg. You will need to be able to advance and back up the clip frame by frame using the arrow keys on your key board.

Click to expand...

got it download.
I have been trying to wrap my mind around never letting go of the coil, and how it helps power the hips.

What yo have already said, in your last post, about the rear leg being a platform already makes more common sense.

I read over the whole rear leg debate, who i believe, there, that booth made the common sense, but the other side claimed victory.

I do not want a battle, just the truth, and a proper way to teach lower end mechanics to the kids.

mann said:

got it download.
I have been trying to wrap my mind around never letting go of the coil, and how it helps power the hips.

What yo have already said, in your last post, about the rear leg being a platform already makes more common sense.

I read over the whole rear leg debate, who i believe, there, that booth made the common sense, but the other side claimed victory.

I do not want a battle, just the truth, and a proper way to teach lower end mechanics to the kids.

Click to expand...

Mann, I think of the coil as a coil spring. The bottom of the spring is at the rear hip socket area, the top of the spring is at the hands/bat/shoulder area. That action of coiling I think of as tightening the spring from the bottom. Like if you were holding a spring between you hands. You tighten the coils by turning the bottom of the spring. You want to whip of the bat, or the release of the top of the spring in your hands, to be as hard as possible. So you would not want to turn or tighten the bottom of the coil in you hands, then let go or loosen the bottom hand before letting go of the top hand.

Wellphyt said:

NoonTime, I'm not purposely trying to ignore you. I just don't think answering your question is relevant to teaching hitting. If you are asking if I've ever experimented with trying to INternally Rotate the femur of my rear leg while in my stance; yes I have. I've experimented with everything you can think of.

Click to expand...

Whoa.. did you even read what I wrote or are you just assuming I am asking you about IR again?

The original question to jbooth was about an experiment and whether the leg action is ER and IR. He responded that it was abduction and adduction. That is this post:
http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-hitting-technical/12372-rear-leg-12.html#post146185

I tried to follow up with him about his abduction and adduciton claims because it made some sense to me. PStein was kind enough to post his thoughts and I responded in this post here:
http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-hitting-technical/12372-rear-leg-12.html#post146206

Then you posted and I thought I'd also ask your opinion so I posted this:

but can you also give me your thoughts on the experiment and also the question of if when one adducts as I am describing if the femur also becomes IR'd?

If I start in a position where my rear leg is flexed and abducted, is it also starting in an externally rotated position?

If from there I use the muscles to adduct (keeping my foot on the ground), while staying flexed... my femur adducts, but does it change it's position relative to being in ER or IR? Would it now be said to be in a position of being internally rotated if I adducted it far enough... i.e. if I adduct it part way do I get back to neutral with regards to being in ER/IR... and then if I adduct it more does it go into IR?

(during all this my foot is not turning on the ground, nor are my hips turning or shifting laterally to either side, I am just asking about the change in position when I adduct from a flexed, abducted starting spot)

Click to expand...

So No, I am not asking "If you are asking if I've ever experimented with trying to INternally Rotate the femur of my rear leg while in my stance"

I am asking:

1) Your thoughts on the experiment and if you agree with jbooth that the action is adduction and abduction.

2) If when adducting as in my experiment if the femur also becomes more IR'd

3) If I start in a position where my rear hip joint has flexion and the femur is in a position of abducted, is it also starting in an externally rotated position?

4) If from there I use the muscles to adduct (keeping my foot on the ground), while staying flexed... my femur adducts, but does it change it's position relative to being in ER or IR? Would it now be said to be in a position of being internally rotated if I adducted it far enough... i.e. if I adduct it part way do I get back to neutral with regards to being in ER/IR... and then if I adduct it more does it go into IR?

Thanks for getting back to me.

Cheers,
NoonTime

redhotcoach said:

Mann, I think of the coil as a coil spring. The bottom of the spring is at the rear hip socket area, the top of the spring is at the hands/bat/shoulder area. That action of coiling I think of as tightening the spring from the bottom. Like if you were holding a spring between you hands. You tighten the coils by turning the bottom of the spring. You want to whip of the bat, or the release of the top of the spring in your hands, to be as hard as possible. So you would not want to turn or tighten the bottom of the coil in you hands, then let go or loosen the bottom hand before letting go of the top hand.

Click to expand...

The bold above ,Exactly, this is how i see the swing working also.
The rest you lose me.

You see the coil, the coil foward, the rotation of the hips in a clockwise motion, for a righty, does not suppl y the power for the swing.

Its the rotation of the hips in the counter clockwise direction, with the upper resisting, that creates the seperation.
I can see the coil, grabbing onto the side, before the before the hips opening. (Which i call uncoil, as a cue.)

I think I understand what you mean.

To me, and to picture the spring correctly, the hips are the bottom of the top. Power comes from the rear leg ir and the top resisting. To me to "rotate the hips" per say, you would have to use the core muscles. To resist the turn of the lower, you have to use core muscles. The core can't both power a turn and resist a turn: If the coil is between the hip socket on up, the way I view it, it does not have to uncoil.

FFS gif:

For those who want to play along, open up the Utley clip in QuickTime. Hit the right arrow key 4 times followed by hitting the left arrow key 4 times. Keep toggling back and forth between those first four frames. Watch the back foot, knee, and thigh. That action is called EXternal Rotation. He is screwing in his back foot. It's an old golf trick. Experiment with it at home.

The idea is to give your body the feel of taking your hips towards your target while in your stance. You are essentially taking slack out of the system so that when the front foot gets lifted to coil the hips the back leg is immediately resisting. Utley's back leg visibly turns back some during his hip coil, but notice how his hips begin to go forward almost immediately after lifting his front foot.

Go back to the beginning of the clip and hit the right arrow key 34 times. From there hit the right arrow key two times (frames 35 and 36). Toggle back and forth between those two frames while watching the rear foot. That backward move of the rear foot indicates pressure caused by the butt muscles trying to EXternally Rotate the rear leg to take the hips to the ball....weight shift.

Anytime you analyze hip action/weight shift. Make sure to watch for the front thigh roll over. Look for a connection between the front thigh roll over and outward pressure at the back foot. Compare what you see to how your legs work when you throw. When you throw a ball, your front thigh will roll over just before your front foot lands. At the moment your front thigh begins to roll over do you feel pressure at your back foot? What direction do you feel the pressure?

Do an experiment when throwing. As soon as you feel your front thigh begin to roll over, INternally Rotate your back leg and squish the bug. Do you see why it's important to keep the back foot anchored until the rear hip is done using the back leg to launch itself targetward?

first few frames INternally rotates head of femur ball in hip scoket/acetabulum as weight bearing rear leg/closed chain lets pelvis turn back over femur putting the rear hip joint in IR until Range of motion is maxed out, then pelvis and femur turn back together which moves the knee back/out some while retaining rear hip IR, see description of same action for overhand throw in this article including AcetabuloFemoral Internal Rotation/"AFIR"

http://hruskaclinic.com/media/pdf/Imbalances.pdf

Femoral-acetabular (FA) motion refers to the femur moving
within the acetabulum. Acetabular-femoral (AF) refers to the
acetabulum moving on the femur.

During the wind-up of a right-handed thrower, the motion
occurring in relation to the right (rear) lower extremity is in a state of right
acetabular-femoral internal rotation.

NoonTime said:

Whoa.. did you even read what I wrote or are you just assuming I am asking you about IR again?

The original question to jbooth was about an experiment and whether the leg action is ER and IR. He responded that it was abduction and adduction. That is this post:
http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-hitting-technical/12372-rear-leg-12.html#post146185

I tried to follow up with him about his abduction and adduciton claims because it made some sense to me. PStein was kind enough to post his thoughts and I responded in this post here:
http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-hitting-technical/12372-rear-leg-12.html#post146206

Then you posted and I thought I'd also ask your opinion so I posted this:



So No, I am not asking "If you are asking if I've ever experimented with trying to INternally Rotate the femur of my rear leg while in my stance"

I am asking:

1) Your thoughts on the experiment and if you agree with jbooth that the action is adduction and abduction.

2) If when adducting as in my experiment if the femur also becomes more IR'd

3) If I start in a position where my rear hip joint has flexion and the femur is in a position of abducted, is it also starting in an externally rotated position?

4) If from there I use the muscles to adduct (keeping my foot on the ground), while staying flexed... my femur adducts, but does it change it's position relative to being in ER or IR? Would it now be said to be in a position of being internally rotated if I adducted it far enough... i.e. if I adduct it part way do I get back to neutral with regards to being in ER/IR... and then if I adduct it more does it go into IR?

Thanks for getting back to me.

Cheers,
NoonTime

Click to expand...

IMO the femur changes position in the hip socket throughout the swing. With that said, I don't care what the exact position of the femur is within the hip socket when teaching kids how to hit. Getting into that level of detail is way to far into the weeds for my taste. Like I said, I don't agree with the idea of creating a "battle in the rear hip socket".

The role of the rear leg is simply to remain stable while the pelvis uses it to weight shift. When you coil your hips you lengthen your Hip External Rotator muscles. You have essentially stored up energy at your rear hip socket during the coil phase.




If you want to release that stored energy you have to shorten those same muscles. The best hitters release that stored energy immediately at "GO". They don't save it to run the bases or walk back to the dugout. You can either release that stored up energy using the ground as leverage by anchoring your back foot; or not. IMO the better hitters leverage the ground with their back leg/foot as the hips transition from turning back to turning forward.