The rear leg

[Wellphyt]

This clip shows Pujols at the moment of transition when his hips go from turning back to turning forward. Prior to the sevam1 video, all I saw when watching clips like this was the back knee turning down-and-in. Most see the knee action and think; "INternal Rotation". The hitting dvds I originally used to teach my dd placed a lot of emphasis on hinging the back knee and driving the back down-and-in into heel plant.

After watching the sevam1 video I stopped looking at the back knee and started looking at the back foot. That's when I realized that the pressure direction at the back foot in hitters like Pujols, Utley. Hamilton. Trout etc., was backwards at the moment of transition, indicating an EXternal Rotation muscle action of the rear leg to drive the hips forward into rotation.

It's impossible to get the back foot action of Pujols, Hamilton, Utley or Trout, by internally rotating your rear leg. As soon as the rear leg begins to internally rotate the pressure at the back foot disappears....squish the bug or having to use too much linear movement after heel plant to unweight the rear foot. The hips will clear in a more anatomically correct way using EXternal Rotation muscle action.

Here is a longer version of sevam1 explaining the back leg. As always, you need to adapt what he's saying to hitting a softball. Think about the first four frames of the Utley clip when watching this video. Do the points about limiting sway back make sense for the softball swing? Does the point about compression make sense for the softball swing (2:48 mark)?

 

[NoonTime]

Wellphyt,
Is it really that hard to answer direct questions? I even numbered them for you. Why do you feel compelled to use the qualifier "when teaching kids how to hit". This is the technical thread, not the "teaching kids" thread. Come on, push yourself a little... show us what you know instead of just regurgitating what other people say. It's ok to just say "I don't know" as well.... we are all here to learn. Or if you would rather not answer them for yourself, perhaps you could ask jbooth how you should answer or maybe go ask your wife?
Cheers,
NoonTime

 

[RayR]

wellphyt, when you say

It's impossible to get the back foot action of Pujols, Hamilton, Utley or Trout, by internally rotating your rear leg.

I would say your version of IR was not accurate....to get the rear heel to move forward is a result of the rear hip and rear leg working together against the upper body...I totally agree that rear upper leg IR is what these hitter do...

I can stand up and IR the femur into my rear hip and as I tighten it up my heel wants to pull forward and my hips want to keep coiling towards the pitcher...and I am not even turning my upper body back to give my hips even more to resist against.

 

[tom.guerry]

Get and keep the rear femur IR'd in the rear hip with increasing IR pressure using whatever muscles you have to, to keep the swing short/quick/in the high level BB pattern.
letting ER occur lengthens the swing/is slop. There is plenty of power left via hip extension and adduction, and knee extension.
this is prepared for by leg ABduction (spreading legs in stride) and leg/knee/hip flexion while rear hip remains in IR and front hip ER's (as stride proceeds) to prepare to catch the pelvis by front hip IR.

rear hip ER is fine for longer swings/golf, but prevents the HLBB early batspeed/late adjustability stretch and fire pattern

 

[drc9805]

Thanks to NoonTime gifs.

I love the gif in the middle or I guess I should say I love the gif in the middle if this is the look and feel we should have when coiling or are moving forward by coil. MTS...do you agree with this gif? Will you achieve the pressure on the upper thigh trying to IR here or not?

 

[RichK]

wellphyt, when you say



I would say your version of IR was not accurate....to get the rear heel to move forward is a result of the rear hip and rear leg working together against the upper body...I totally agree that rear upper leg IR is what these hitter do...

I can stand up and IR the femur into my rear hip and as I tighten it up my heel wants to pull forward and my hips want to keep coiling towards the pitcher...and I am not even turning my upper body back to give my hips even more to resist against.

For those trying to learn and follow along (as I have and continue to try to do), using the concepts of upper rear-leg IR and drive-the-knee down IR interchangeably is wrong and confuses the issue and conversation.

They are different movements. Thanks MTS for pointing that out and describing it....

 

[tom.guerry]

There is a large variety of successful hip sequencing patterns in golf. The best way to understand how to see this on video is by studying miyahira's work. Look at the illustration on the linksbelow with red/blue/green lines ,etc,
In golf, Miyahira considers the rear hip early IR/keeping rear hip in IR a flaw, but it has advantages for the HLBB swing, providing the short/quick/spatially early swing. The most similar golfer is Furyk, see example of his accentuated rear hip IR near the end of this article:

What's a Hip Turn? Part 2 :: Oceanic Time Warner Cable's AroundHawaii.com

Miyahira: "Furyk’s hip motions are very right (rear) side dominant". He uses the left (front) side only to create half a "squat move".


See more detail about typical classic swings using rear hip IR-ER-IR like Palmer and Hogan and Snead, but notice they roll the weight to the outside of the rear foot and they transition into a pronounced "squat" (ER of both hips, unike Furyk who stays in rear hip IR):


How To Turn Your Hips Part 3: The Backswing :: Oceanic Time Warner Cable's AroundHawaii.com


To take Pujols, for example, he demonstrates the knock kneed/weight on inside of feet type pattern that does not work for the ir-er-ir of the rear hip in the classic golfer's "power squat".

rear hip in HLBB is plain IR (IR-IR-IR, not IR-ER-IR) with hip as "bottom of top".

As Rich/MTS point out, this is not the same as "unopposed IR" which is bug squish, or "HIP as top of bottom" which is bleed. This is a very nuanced appearance that needs to be reproduced with the right under the hood action. Actively trying to turn the back foot out ("the move") for example, will force ER/bleed in the rear hip.

 

[Wellphyt]

Here is Sevam1 with a close up of his back foot during transition. Notice how the heel comes forward before it unweights and points skyward.



Rear foot eversion is a result of driving the hips open with continued pressure into/againt the rear foot to uncoil. Notice how Hamilton's rear foot doesn't "release" until after his hips begin to turn forward.

Same with Pujols:

Lateral pressure in the rear foot into the ground creates a completely different platform than I/R'ing the rear leg INTO THE HIP. I/R'ing the rear leg INTO THE HIP is NOT the same as E/R'ing the hip into a "stable" rear leg.

ONE is an action of the rear leg.......MOVEMENT.......Turning the rear femur/knee FORWARD IN THE SOCKET.

Equivalent to trying to squish the bug into the coil....I/R'inig the rear leg in the hip socket. This is OPEN CHAIN articulation whereby the DISTAL PART MOVES (rear leg) and the PROXIMAL PART (pelvis) IS STABLE.

The other involves the PROXIMAL PART MOVING (pelvis) and the DISTAL PART (rear leg) REMAINING STABLE (NOT MOVING or trying NOT TO MOVE). This is CLOSED CHAIN articulation.

Simply keeping the rear leg stable is NOT an ACTION of internal rotation of the rear leg in the hip socket. It is NOT squishing the bug into the coil as "THE I/R advocates" claim is happening. I/R'ing the rear leg into the coil does not make the rear foot turn back or the heel come forward, as seen in the Hamilton, Pujols, Utley etc clips.

The I/R advocates are asking you to look at the Hamilton clip and believe that his foot turns back....as his hips turn forward....because he is trying to SQUISH THE BUG into the coil.

 

[RayR]

Wellphyt, I know you have good intentions but I am 100% sure that have not felt what I have in the last couple of days....your words tell me so....

When I use my lower back - my back leg and back hip get sucked into each other to provide resistance....IR/IR.

I don't have to contrive a move with my rear foot.

No one is saying anything about squishing the bug - my hope is that my rear foot does not slip out from underneath me when I swing in sneakers on concrete...

 

[NoonTime]

Wellphyt,
You made me think about a potentially interesting topic... you keep explaining what you see as the problem with inward pressure in the rear leg, and it's clear in your doing so that you don't understand what the IR/inward pressure advocates are talking about. I understand you were burned by drive the knee down and in, squish the bug type instruction in the past, but you need to reboot and get over that. No one is advocating that. Anyway, I thought it might be interesting to flip the script and have the IR/inward pressure advocates describe what they see as the problem with ER as they think you are describing. So how about it...what's "wrong" with ER?

rear hip ER is fine for longer swings/golf, but prevents the HLBB early batspeed/late adjustability stretch and fire pattern

Tom, why is it fine for longer swings/golf? How does it prevent early bat speed/late adjustability?

Anyone else want to take a crack at it?

I'd say it is also fine for:
- Dry swings
- tee swings
- soft toss
- front toss
- moderate speed BP
- it's even fine for high velocity FB if that is all that is coming or if that is all you will swing at

So where is the breakdown? Boil down the crux of why the ER action will eventually fail if you play to a high enough level against high level pitching.

Cheers,
NoonTime