Who is out?
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Touches R1? Nothing.
Touches B2?...B2 out.
Touches B2?...B2 out.
So in these scenarios of runners sharing a base, you treat it as if the trailing runner can't go back, right? (I know they can - but for making a safe/out call). Even though 1B is open, B2 (not B1? is that b/c B1 is now R1?) is already on 2B, so 2B is now "locked" and R1 can only go to 3B. Trying to think of a simple way to explain it to my 12U team.
Are the following variations also correct?
Variant 1
R1 starts on 3B, R2 starts on 2B, and on a WP, both runners try to advance, but C makes a great block, and R1 retreats to 3B to find R2 already there. R2 is entitled to the base, even though 2B is still open, so R1 would need to be tagged in order to get an out.
Variant 2
R1 starts on 2B, and there's now an R2 on 1B. Ground ball to SS freezes R1, who then retreats to 2B (we're a young 12U - I can see this happening). R2 hasn't gotten there yet. In this scenario, who and what gets tagged, and in what order, matters. You would still want to tag the lead runner first, b/c if you tag the base first, then only R2 is out, and since you've removed the force, R1 is again entitled to 2B. If you tag R1 first, you get the out (b/c she is being forced to 3B), and can then still touch 2B for the force on R2.
(Sorry for the lengthy scenario - I need to write these things out to get it straight in my head!)
That being said - I think the correct "teach" is to always tag the lead runner first. Am I missing a scenario where you'd want to tag the base or trailing runner first? (I'm looking to maximize outs - I realize there may be times where we can only get one out, and you may want to remove the faster runner if possible).
Variant 3
Nuts - just thought of another alternate scenario - back to the original, my change in italics:
Ruleset?
I'm almost afraid to add this question - do any of the rulesets treat these scenarios differently?
Are the following variations also correct?
Variant 1
R1 starts on 3B, R2 starts on 2B, and on a WP, both runners try to advance, but C makes a great block, and R1 retreats to 3B to find R2 already there. R2 is entitled to the base, even though 2B is still open, so R1 would need to be tagged in order to get an out.
Variant 2
R1 starts on 2B, and there's now an R2 on 1B. Ground ball to SS freezes R1, who then retreats to 2B (we're a young 12U - I can see this happening). R2 hasn't gotten there yet. In this scenario, who and what gets tagged, and in what order, matters. You would still want to tag the lead runner first, b/c if you tag the base first, then only R2 is out, and since you've removed the force, R1 is again entitled to 2B. If you tag R1 first, you get the out (b/c she is being forced to 3B), and can then still touch 2B for the force on R2.
(Sorry for the lengthy scenario - I need to write these things out to get it straight in my head!)
That being said - I think the correct "teach" is to always tag the lead runner first. Am I missing a scenario where you'd want to tag the base or trailing runner first? (I'm looking to maximize outs - I realize there may be times where we can only get one out, and you may want to remove the faster runner if possible).
Variant 3
Nuts - just thought of another alternate scenario - back to the original, my change in italics:
When it's an open base (no force in effect), is it first come, first served? (R1 is safe, B2 is out).
Ruleset?
I'm almost afraid to add this question - do any of the rulesets treat these scenarios differently?
If there's no force, and if two runners are on a base, the one who legally occupied it first is entitled to it, and the other is in jeopardy.
In the OP, Fanny batting, Patty was on second. Fanny can't occupy a base that Patty first legally occupied. Fanny, if tagged with the ball is out. Patty if tagged with the ball is not out. No matter the order.
Same with your variant 1. Patty on third. Fanny can't occupy third when Patty occupied it first. It's Patty's. If Fanny is tagged with the ball, she's out. Patty is not.
Variant 2, you got correct, because there is a force.
Variant 3 is the same as the OP (doesn't matter the order they arrive). Patty occupied it legally first, and there's no force, so it's hers.
I don't think the rulesets treat this any differently. In USA, it's 8.3.E:
Two runners may not occupy the same base at the same time
Effect:
1. The runner who first legally occupied the base is entitled to that base, unless forced to advance
2. The other runner may be put out by being tagged with the ball
In the OP, Fanny batting, Patty was on second. Fanny can't occupy a base that Patty first legally occupied. Fanny, if tagged with the ball is out. Patty if tagged with the ball is not out. No matter the order.
Same with your variant 1. Patty on third. Fanny can't occupy third when Patty occupied it first. It's Patty's. If Fanny is tagged with the ball, she's out. Patty is not.
Variant 2, you got correct, because there is a force.
Variant 3 is the same as the OP (doesn't matter the order they arrive). Patty occupied it legally first, and there's no force, so it's hers.
I don't think the rulesets treat this any differently. In USA, it's 8.3.E:
Two runners may not occupy the same base at the same time
Effect:
1. The runner who first legally occupied the base is entitled to that base, unless forced to advance
2. The other runner may be put out by being tagged with the ball
- Oct 24, 2010
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None AFAIK.
OK - I was way off. And somehow misread Wildcats initial reply. (Must be a Monday...)
When does entitlement end? (politics - hah!) Per USSSA (which I probably should have read before spending time writing the above):
So the correct "teach", in a non-force situation, is to tag the trailing runner first.
When does entitlement end? (politics - hah!) Per USSSA (which I probably should have read before spending time writing the above):
USSSA 2020 FPRB said:
So the correct "teach", in a non-force situation, is to tag the trailing runner first.
Yes, sort of. The correct teach for the team in the field is always tag BOTH then tag anyone who leaves the base again. You never know who will get confused and walk off of the base even though they are entitled to it. The correct teach for the baserunners (other than not end up that way) is not to leave the base until the umpire declares which runner is out.So the correct "teach", in a non-force situation, is to tag the trailing runner first.
In a non force situation it doesnt matter what order you tag because it doesnt change the situation. The lead runner is entitled to the base so regardless of if you tag them first or second they arent out. The only runner than can be put out is the trailing runner who is not entitled to the base.
Now, in a force situation it does make a difference in the order because if you tag the trailing runner first the force is removed and now the lead runner is entitled to the base.
Now, in a force situation it does make a difference in the order because if you tag the trailing runner first the force is removed and now the lead runner is entitled to the base.
In a force wouldn't the trailing runner be entitled to the bag and not the lead runner? So first and second ground ball hit to short both runners some how end up on second at the same time (with out R1 having ever reached 3rd). R2 from first now has beat the throw to second is entitled to the bag. R1 is forced to vacate second on the play, and attempt to reach third, since she didn't she's the one jeopardy? I guess I'm asking in a force isn't the lead runner the only one at jeopardy after R2 is occupies the base since R1 is forced to vacate the bag?
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