What is "Turning the Triangle"?

[RichK]

Just some comments as I try to absorb this:

- Bonds' position when the triangle is drawn on the screen captures above seems very similar to the elbow positions we saw encouraged by the "connector" device to me

- I've been using the cue of "high hand pivot" more and more to introduce to our girls some of the concepts discussed in recent days and weeks by Tewks and others (I'm still reluctant to use "flattening the hands" as a verbal cue even if that's what happens (maybe I'll get more comfortable with that over time, still in absorb mode)

- While it seems to describe roughly the same concept related to hip drive and connection, I find "keeping the box connected" easier to visualize and explain than turning the triangle or "flipping" the triangle, which, no offense to Wellphyt whose comments I get a lot of value from, lost me a bit : >

- Finally, not totally related but Bonds related, we've started doing the Barry Bonds drill (where we you make contact you move close to the pitching machine next swing) and the girls like to compete with it and also I feel it somehow relates to them *feeling* how to get more efficient and shorter to the ball using some of the concepts in this thread. In a controlled environment they have to learn to get rid of extraneous movements in the load and path to the ball.

Tks everyone.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I'm still reluctant to use "flattening the hands" as a verbal cue even if that's what happens (maybe I'll get more comfortable with that over time, still in absorb mode.

When you get the hands flat, you're getting them, and more importantly the bat head, on plane with the pitch, which is a critical concept.

IMO, the idea of getting the barrel of the bat on plane with the pitch is much more important, and useful, than talking about a hand pivot point since you hit the ball with the bat and not the hands.

There's also the issue that the idea of a hand pivot point is still a very fuzzy concept that hasn't been explained well.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Tewks, if you've got something to say about my view of the hand pivot point, you need to say it out in the open on the board and stop PMing me and IMing me.

That's harassment and is grounds for banning on most sites.

 

[Wellphyt]

I would just focus on turning the triangle.

Flipping the triangle can unnecessarily complicate the swing. It's much simpler to start with the bat on plane, or near plane, and the hands flat.

I agree that using a flatter handset in your stance simplifies the swing, especially for younger players who are learning. That's one of the big reasons Epstein recommends starting with the bat on the deltoid (flat hands). The problem that I have found is that a player can still turn the triangle incorrectly from a flat handset if they are never taught how the top hand works to get the bat started. This is why I now initially drill all players on how to get their hands flat from a vertical bat handset. The feel the player gets from this vertical bat setup easily transfers to other handset positions.

There is more than one way to turn the triangle. I have found there is only one way that results in the backward arc of the barrel that allows the player to hit in a Long Zone.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I gather, from Tewks' back-channel objections, that the idea of the hand pivot point is related to the idea of THT and the swivel. One reason I have a problem with the idea of active force production with the hands is that it shares the same basic problem with the idea of actively and consciously flicking the wrist when throwing.

The research I have read says that, in throwing, the wrist acts as a hinge joint. Yes, it moves. However, it moves due to forces that are generated elsewhere. In good throws, the wrist does not move due to active muscular contraction. In fact, if you actively try to contract the muscles of the wrist, you will slow down the rate at which the wrist will unhinge. It's basically like gumming up a hinge joint. Instead, the wrist should be loose so that it can unhinge due to the forces that are generated in the body and the arm.

I view the hand pivot point in hitting similarly.

There is no doubt that the hands act as a pivot point point in the swing. That's the whole point of the double pendulum model, which I gather really isn't disputed. However, and for the same reasons as the wrist in throwing, the hand pivot point in hitting is un-powered. If you try to actively generate force with the hands or wrists prior to the Point Of Contact, you will only gum up a hinge that should (and will) swing freely due to forces generated elsewhere.

 

[Tewks]

I gather, from Tewks' back-channel objections, that the idea of the hand pivot point is related to the idea of THT and the swivel. One reason I have a problem with the idea of active force production with the hands is that it shares the same basic problem with the idea of actively and consciously flicking the wrist when throwing.

The research I have read says that, in throwing, the wrist acts as a hinge joint. Yes, it moves. However, it moves due to forces that are generated elsewhere. In good throws, the wrist does not move due to active muscular contraction. In fact, if you actively try to contract the muscles of the wrist, you will slow down the rate at which the wrist will unhinge. It's basically like gumming up a hinge joint. Instead, the wrist should be loose so that it can unhinge due to the forces that are generated in the body and the arm.

I view the hand pivot point in hitting similarly.

There is no doubt that the hands act as a pivot point point in the swing. That's the whole point of the double pendulum model, which I gather really isn't disputed. However, and for the same reasons as the wrist in throwing, the hand pivot point in hitting is un-powered. If you try to actively generate force with the hands or wrists prior to the Point Of Contact, you will only gum up a hinge that should (and will) swing freely due to forces generated elsewhere.

Chris, I enjoyed this post. Hopefully it can lead to some detailed discussion. My key question here is change in wording I noticed with what you wrote in the above post compared to what you have written here in the past (and on other forums) and what you have written on your website, which is the hand/wrist action THROUGH or AT the point of contact. I would like to stress that this is not semantics and a critical difference in philosophy.

From your website:

Second, the research suggests that trying to activate the hands, wrists, and forearms through the point of contact is more likely to hurt one's bat speed than it is to help it. That is because by tightening the muscles of the hands, wrists, and forearms at the POC, you are tightening up the hinge that, if let alone, will automatically release and cause the head of the bat to fly out into the path of the ball.

That is why, despite numerous claims to the contrary, I have never seen any visual evidence that any major league hitter uses such a hybrid approach.

In a prior discussion that I believe was deleted, you asked me about the strength or weakness of a hand pivot point, and I responded that the quality was more dependent on when it happened. Here you have written PRIOR to the point of contact. I'd love to know why.

 

[Tewks]

Chris, I'm having a conversation now with my business partner who is a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist. We are discussing the force production of the throw and the force production in hitting. In throwing, the fingers have the final transfer of energy to the ball, while in hitting the barrel of the bat (hopefully!) has the final force production on the ball.

I'd love to know how/why you compare the wrist action in throwing to the wrist action in hitting. Just some initial thoughts here, but in a throw, the external rotation and "lay down" aspects of the throw at "go" would be comparable to hand pivot point, swivel, etc.

 

[cartersball]

There is no doubt that the hands act as a pivot point point in the swing. That's the whole point of the double pendulum model, which I gather really isn't disputed. However, and for the same reasons as the wrist in throwing, the hand pivot point in hitting is un-powered. If you try to actively generate force with the hands or wrists prior to the Point Of Contact, you will only gum up a hinge that should (and will) swing freely due to forces generated elsewhere.

The action of turning the triangle or even flipping the triangle as Wellphyt suggests must be completed by the hands and arms actively to get the bat on plane as fast as what has been described in my experience. If you have experience that suggests otherwise I encourage you to video a short demo so that we may all try it out. Might get us on the same page, or closer to the same page. I appreciate all of the demos Tewks has done thus far as they have really helped to explain how he sees things and I have found that I see them pretty much the same way.
The way I see it is as follows: If the hands are not active in prior to the point of contact then that only leaves the core rotation of the hips and shoulders to bring the bat on plane. Correct? If I hold a bat in the neck slot and do not actively resist the opening of the hips with the upper body there is no separation of the upper and lower halves, meaning the body will rotate as one unit shoulders and hips together allowing the bat to come out of the neck slot and to the POC. The problem I have with this, besides the fact that in video the hips lead the shoulders, is that I am now vunerable to anything on the outside part of the plate because my shoulders are already open. I also feel a lot of frontside pull, which means my weight is not staying back as it should. Now if I actively resist with the upper body to create that hips lead first look and feel, the bat does not properly get on plane until too late. Meaning again I cannot adjust to location on the fly, let alone speed.
Those are my initial feelings after trying what it is I believe you are suggesting Chris. If I am wrong please correct me so that i may demonstrate properly.

EDIT: I want to stress that I am actively trying to figure out what Chris is trying to say in an effort to give a fair and unbiased judgement based on what I feel. There is no reason not to try it as long as he can explain it to me without advertising a website or video for me to buy. This is what Tewks and I have done thus far and what I will continue to do, explain as best as we can our feelings in a swing/drill and give a description of it so that others may try it if they choose. So far I think this approach has been to the benefit of the members here, as many have expressed thanks for the explanations and videos. I would encourage the same out of Chris so that I may actively try what it is he is describing as well as I think it would benefit others to try this as well. That is what dissenting opinions are for, so we can learn from one another.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

In a prior discussion that I believe was deleted, you asked me about the strength or weakness of a hand pivot point, and I responded that the quality was more dependent on when it happened. Here you have written PRIOR to the point of contact. I'd love to know why.

I don't think that's a very important distinction.

I just updated my web site to use "through" everywhere.

Based on what I see in video of good hitters, I do believe the hands are active at the start of the swing (when the shoulders start rotating), but they aren't turning the barrel. Based on what I see in video, they just maintaining the position of the barrel of the bat relative to the back shoulder.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, I'm having a conversation now with my business partner who is a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist. We are discussing the force production of the throw and the force production in hitting. In throwing, the fingers have the final transfer of energy to the ball, while in hitting the barrel of the bat (hopefully!) has the final force production on the ball.

You're using "transfer of energy" and "force production" interchangeably, which IMO isn't accurate.

You can transfer energy without producing additional force (which is what I believe happens in both a throw and swing).