Umpire's Call
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Well, gee, I guess I wasted my time flipping through the rule book page by page trying to find a rule that says you can't do that...
And that's the way the rule book generally works. It doesn't list every possible thing that a player is allowed to do. That would make for an infinitely long and unmanageable rule book. If something is a rule violation, then the rules list it as something a player may not do.
For instance, the rules don't say that a batter may hit the ball with both feet inside the batters box. They say that they may not hit the ball with one foot outside of it. They don't say that the pitcher may pitch a ball free of foreign substance and defacement. They say that the defense may not deface the ball or put a foreign substance on it.
Some of the suggestions in this thread about how to handle this are just plain unworkable and would be impossible to put into place. Some say that you would handle this differently depending on the age of the players. Others say it should be handled differently depending on if this is a purposeful, coached tactic versus an honest mistake by the batter. Good luck crafting a rule that encompasses all of that.
Other than a specific rule addressing this, I see it more as a game management issue. And, as with most all game management issues, enforcement will be at the discretion and judgment of the umpire. While such enforcement may be situational (taking into consideration age or intent) there isn't a specific black and white rule that tells an umpire how to handle this.
Calling time or issuing warnings for similar plays isn't without precedence. There is a high school case play that addresses a batter taking off to first base on ball three that says it may be interpreted as an unsporting act if judged to be a purposeful tactic. Last year ASA issued a play clarification that suggested an umpire call time if a batter advanced to first on an uncaught third strike with first base occupied and less than two outs. I suppose that you might extrapolate these similar plays to fit the one being discussed here. But they aren't the same play and they aren't addressed by a specific rule or penalty.
At the same time, there are other interpretations for other plays that say the teams are responsible for knowing the game situation and count, as well as an actual rule that says a batter advancing to first when not entitled to is NOT to be considered as an act of interference.
So what's a poor umpire to do? Let it slide? Crack down on it? Come up with an on-the-spot solution that appeases one coach while pissing off the other?
With no clear cut rule to fall back on, an umpire will have to do what he thinks best to manage the game at hand. But if how he handles it doesn't please the coach, the coach really can't say that the umpire isn't following any certain rule because there isn't one certain rule to follow.
And that's the way the rule book generally works. It doesn't list every possible thing that a player is allowed to do. That would make for an infinitely long and unmanageable rule book. If something is a rule violation, then the rules list it as something a player may not do.
For instance, the rules don't say that a batter may hit the ball with both feet inside the batters box. They say that they may not hit the ball with one foot outside of it. They don't say that the pitcher may pitch a ball free of foreign substance and defacement. They say that the defense may not deface the ball or put a foreign substance on it.
Some of the suggestions in this thread about how to handle this are just plain unworkable and would be impossible to put into place. Some say that you would handle this differently depending on the age of the players. Others say it should be handled differently depending on if this is a purposeful, coached tactic versus an honest mistake by the batter. Good luck crafting a rule that encompasses all of that.
Other than a specific rule addressing this, I see it more as a game management issue. And, as with most all game management issues, enforcement will be at the discretion and judgment of the umpire. While such enforcement may be situational (taking into consideration age or intent) there isn't a specific black and white rule that tells an umpire how to handle this.
Calling time or issuing warnings for similar plays isn't without precedence. There is a high school case play that addresses a batter taking off to first base on ball three that says it may be interpreted as an unsporting act if judged to be a purposeful tactic. Last year ASA issued a play clarification that suggested an umpire call time if a batter advanced to first on an uncaught third strike with first base occupied and less than two outs. I suppose that you might extrapolate these similar plays to fit the one being discussed here. But they aren't the same play and they aren't addressed by a specific rule or penalty.
At the same time, there are other interpretations for other plays that say the teams are responsible for knowing the game situation and count, as well as an actual rule that says a batter advancing to first when not entitled to is NOT to be considered as an act of interference.
So what's a poor umpire to do? Let it slide? Crack down on it? Come up with an on-the-spot solution that appeases one coach while pissing off the other?
With no clear cut rule to fall back on, an umpire will have to do what he thinks best to manage the game at hand. But if how he handles it doesn't please the coach, the coach really can't say that the umpire isn't following any certain rule because there isn't one certain rule to follow.
- Jun 24, 2013
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But the rules do say what you can do for a batter to become a batter-runner. This batter did none of those things and still continued on as if she were eligible and was advised to continue by the coaching staff.
As for a coach forgetting the count? Then they should accept the penalty. As i coach I make sure that I know the count. If need be I will ask the blue or scorekeeper.
As for a coach forgetting the count? Then they should accept the penalty. As i coach I make sure that I know the count. If need be I will ask the blue or scorekeeper.
Right. And since this batter did none of them, no matter where she runs or anything else she does, by rule she is still just a batter.
Maybe by your definition she "attempted to become a batter-runner", but that definition is meaningless with respect to the rule book. An offensive player (who comes to bat and has not yet been retired) is either a batter, a batter-runner or a runner. She can't really "attempt to change into something else". Well, I suppose she could "attempt to" but it would be a futile attempt. She can attempt all she wants, but no action she took changes the fact that the rules still classify her as a batter and the only rules that apply to her are the ones that apply to batters.
Now...find a rule that says what to do if "a batter attempts to become a batter-runner when not entitled to".
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That post addressed a retired batter.
OK. I thought it might be essentially the same scenario. A retired batter and a batter who has no good reason to be running the bases... seems like if the purpose is to draw a throw, and MTR had a specific rule in mind, the rule might apply to both. But that's why I come into the rules section, to see what real umps say.
- Jun 24, 2013
- 427
- 0
Sooooo... a "batter" is allowed to run the bases between swings? I didn't know they were allowed to do that!
Does she also get to cut across the diamond on her way back to the box or does she have to retrace her steps through the bases? Does she also get to throw her bat in the field of play when there is a runner in scoring position? So a batter can just run where ever they want to?
You're mixing up when something is "allowed" and when something is "a rule violation".
I could come up with an infinitely long list of things a batter might do that aren't addressed by a specific rule. Is a batter allowed to take practice swings between pitches? Are they allowed to wipe dirt on their hands? Can they shake their head "no" if they don't understand a sign from the third base coach? Can they grip the bat with a choke grip, four inches above the knob?
By your logic, the rules don't say a batter can do any of these things so that must mean that they're not allowed to do them.
Again, this BATTER is covered by all of the rules pertaining to BATTERS. If there is no rule that prohibits an action by the batter, then there is no penalty associated with the batter doing it.
OK, let's do this.....You be the umpire. Tells us how you would rule if you were the PU and this occurred.
Three highly experienced, extremely rules knowledgeable umpires have posted clear well written, rational rulebook based replies addressing (Comp#14 MTR#15, Bret#52&59) both the play in the OP and the inevitable "yeah but what if...."so that means a player can...." posts; but yet you still feel they're wrong.
VA Chris (post#41) correctly cited a USSSA rule that could be applied in this situation, if this occurred in a USSSA game. The OP never indicated what rule set they were playing under....I think most of us are assuming ASA.
So, have it, you tell us what rule based action(s) you would take if you were the PU in this game.
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