Umpire incorrectly calls 3 outs in an inning

[The Man In Blue]

There are several examples where the statement by an umpire (even appropriately affect what the players do:
- Umpire calls ball 4 on a near swing and runner at first starts walking to second - late appeal from catcher gets a strike call from field ump - can the runner between first and third be thrown out?
- Pickoff at third - maybe the field ump calls out and the runner surrenders (to be tagged again) but on appeal, the PU sees the tag missed - is the runner out anyway?

If the umpire said/did something (even though they shouldn't have) that players react to, they have the right to negate any advantage or disadvantage that they they erroneously created. I've seen TB where the field was emptied between innings before the scorekeeper had enough gumption to talk to the umpire and confirm with the opposing scorekeeper. Those ump's may be on their 4th+ game and the situations blur together. Better to keep it fair than to take advantage of an umpire's mistake.

Situation 1 ... some rule quotes have been provided already, but I don't feel this falls in the same situation. The ball is live the whole time. The question then is when does the runner lose the protection of being forced on the walk? My answer would be once the call is changed from ball 4 to strike 3. When does that occur? On my field, we aren't making an appeal while the runner is between bases. Let the book keeper figure out how to punch a "sacrifice walk out" into Gamechanger.

Situation 2 ... not an appeal play. What the PU saw doesn't matter.

Umpires on their 4th + game ... that is typically when these things are going to happen. I'll almost always admit the things nobody else will ... after a few games, especially on a hot day, your umpires are giving you diminishing returns, no matter how good they are normally. If an umpire with no break is just as good on games 6, 7, and 8 ... then they weren't that good on 1, 2, and 3.

I have plenty of times that I lose track of the number of outs. You know what I do? Whatever everybody else does (but stay alert in case I was right).

 

[The Man In Blue]

An umpire will call Ball 4 and motion the batter to 1B if he thinks it's ball four. If he does that, it's a done deal and there should be no further discussion unless the bat made contact with the ball and the PU somehow didn't see it. Then it's just a dead-ball. I've seen PUs ask on their own initiative with a check swing on ball four, but the PU doesn't have to ask for help on a ball call just because the catcher or the coach asks...it's purely discretionary. In some cases, the "appeal" is pointless because the position of the field umpire offers no better view than what the PU sees.

Technically not a dead ball. IE: A runner at 2 could steal 3rd while the batter-runner is advancing to first.

I don't think I have seen a PU ask for help voluntarily. I have seem many times the catchers asks him to check after the partial swing.

I had to reread your post a couple of times @Strike2 ... I kept overlooking that bolded part in red also. My brain was thinking "check swings" not foul balls.

Help on a check swing voluntarily? Nope, not going to do it. I know it can easily be missed. Personally, my particular blind spot is that up-and-in pitch that is headed right at my left eye. 99% of the time I am fine with that pitch, but when the batter starts to turn I blinch (blink-flinch). I guess that is the one that gets by the catcher the most and has hit me the most, because that's the one I can't seem to break myself of. I know it. But I'm not checking voluntarily because there is no reason for me to. If the defense thinks there was a swing, we'll do it by the book. If they don't ask, they didn't think so either.

 

[Mike Hurd]

1) Your umpires don't say "Ball" as well as "Strike"? Even if they don't say "Ball", unless they say "Strike", players are going to assume it was a ball and move forward as such. Umpires don't usually appeal to the other umpire unless the catcher asks them too - they called it the way they saw it. That appeal can take some time if the coach is asking the catcher to ask the umpire.

Some PU will yell ball almost as loud as strike and that gets confusing. I've read to say ball loud enough for the batter and catcher to know what is going on and strike loud enough for all the infield to hear.

2) IMO, when pressed/appealed, any good umpire should be willing to ask their partner if that have any other information pertinent to the call. Otherwise they are just arrogant jamokes out there. "Just put her back on third" is the point I was trying to make. Thank you.

2) Unless of course they are positive the batter did not swing. I don't always go, especially when I'm 100% positive it wasn't a swing. If it's close, I'll ask my partner.

 

[PDM]

Fully agree on the "dead ball" distinction. However, look at it from both sides though ... if you leave the runner at third, you penalized the defense for following your "instruction" instead.

I don't like it, but I think putting the runner back was the right thing to do. She would not have advanced had the umpire not erred. The umpire did err though, so we must rectify it.

USSSA 14.12(R) " ... The duties of the Plate Umpire shall include the following: ... Rectify any situation in which an Umpire’s decision that was delayed or reversed has placed either team in jeopardy."

NFHS 10-2-3m " ... The duties include those listed in 10-2-1 and also the following: ...
rectify any situation in which an umpire’s decision that was reversed has placed either team in jeopardy."

Now, had the defense just run off the field because THEY thought it was three outs and the umpires and the offense were wondering what they were doing (have had that MANY times) ... no, I didn't make the mistake so the runner stays.

Excellent answer!

 

[CoachJD]

Some depends on rule set. Baseball is much clearer in all the rule sets.

However in Babe Ruth softball for example (which mirrors the NCAA and OBR baseball rules, but not HS), a check swing appeal can only be made on the call of ball, the plate ump must check with his partner, and "baserunnners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of being put out by the catcher's throw. Also, a catcher must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is reversed to strike."

USA softball doesn't have much to say on check swings, except that "umpires should only check with the base umpire if they are in doubt about whether a swing occurred."

NCAA softball: "On a decision regarding a checked swing, when asked by the catcher, the plate umpire must seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire. Such a request may be made only when the plate umpire has called the pitch a ball"

When I mentioned not "calling" ball 4, I mean an umpire should not audibly shout "Ball 4," which imo makes it definitive. He definitely shouldn't do this on a check swing/when there's an appeal OR he shouldn't grant the appeal (in rule sets where this is permitted).

It drives me nuts when umpires announce balls (a quiet call to the batter/catcher is fine). It's even worse when they editorialize "bring it in," "just missed," etc. My reasoning: You cannot always understand what they're saying, so just say "strike" and nothing else (obviously there are other times they need to be audible. I'm talking just balls/strikes here). Can't tell you how often "inside" or "outside" sounds a little like "strike" and it leads to some confusion. Again, if you want to tell the catcher "that was inside," I have no problem with it, but the whole field shouldn't hear it.

 

[EdLovrich]

3. When does that occur? On my field, we aren't making an appeal while the runner is between bases.

Just wondering TMiB, Is this the same philosophy when it is a D3K/Ball four?

 

[The Man In Blue]

Just wondering TMiB, Is this the same philosophy when it is a D3K/Ball four?

Not sure I am following, so correct me if I have the situation wrong.

With 2 strikes, I call "no swing" on a pitch that lands in the dirt. Defense asks for appeal and it is granted ... Partner rules "swing" for strike 3.

I know my opinion on this, but I'm going to do some research before I out myself. That way y'all can learn from my mistakes.