Umpire incorrectly calls 3 outs in an inning

[EdLovrich]

I can be talked into the 'rightness' of putting the runner back at third. Marriard and TMIB make convincing arguments in this case. This is one of those situations where, as an umpire, I am going to have to listen to a coach be a bit more vocal (just not profane prolonged or personal) in their discussion with me. Please, please, never let me get in the habit of saying more than "out".

 

[The Man In Blue]

Runner is being penalized for knowing the situation. It's a situation caused by an umpire mistake and thus should be rectified so no on is hurt.

The runner is not being penalized for "knowing the situation." The situation was artificially created by the umpire's mistakes. The artificially created situation is simply being erased and set right.

If the bank puts $1,000 in your account instead of $100 and you spend the $1,000, the bank isn't going to say "You know what, kudos to you! Go ahead and keep it!" The bank is going to fix their error. Unless you are playing Monopoly.

 

[EdLovrich]

The runner is not being penalized for "knowing the situation." The situation was artificially created by the umpire's mistakes. The artificially created situation is simply being erased and set right.

If the bank puts $1,000 in your account instead of $100 and you spend the $1,000, the bank isn't going to say "You know what, kudos to you! Go ahead and keep it!" The bank is going to fix their error. Unless you are playing Monopoly.

Hrmmm, if the bank puts $1000 into my account rather than the $100 dollars I KNOW I deposited, I am supposed to know it is only $100 and NOT spend the extra $900. I am expected to know the situation. The bank made a mistake, but if I bounce a check just because the bank SAID there was an extra $900 there, I still get hit with the overdraft charges. The bank (umpire) made the mistake, but I am still expected to know the true situation.

EDIT:
The situation wasn't artificially created, it never changed, there were 2 outs no matter what the umpire said, just as there was only $100 in the bank, not $1000, no matter what the bank said.

 

[canyonjoe]

Runner is being penalized for knowing the situation. It's a situation caused by an umpire mistake and thus should be rectified so no on is hurt.

I meant to say not being penalized. Sorry about that.

 

[CoachJD]

I spent a lot of time trying to decide this one. A lot of it had to do with the level of ball. !2U and lower, I 100% agree that we move the runner back. !6U, HS, and above, no, the defense needs to be accountable for knowing the game situation. The rules you cited, both refer to an umpires decision, there was no decision in this case, but rather an error of fact.

How many times have you rung up a batter on strike 2? If a runner steps off to head to the dugout because they assumed their teammate was out and gets thrown out, are you going to put her back on base due to your mistake?

Or, if there is an IFF situation and the umpires fail to call it while the ball is in flight. If the ball falls and the runners presume they now have to try to advance are you going to put them back on their original basses if either or both get thrown out? No, they are responsible for knowing the situation and that they do NOT have to run on the dropped ball.

Now, if I call a runner out due to being 'forced out' (and there was no force in effect) and they leave the base, only to now be tagged. I would need to put them back, my decision put them in jeopardy.

Or, let's turn the OP around, umpire calls "Out, that's three!" (again, nothing that should ever be said by any umpire at any time.), and the runner steps off second to head to the dugout (oh, let's make it really interesting and say it is the 3rd Base dugout) and is tagged out. The runner could (and should) have remained where she was until she gets clarification on the number of outs, if she had thought it was only 2. It was not a decision that was reversed or in error, that put her in jeopardy. The facts of the game never changed, there were two outs.

Very tough situation for an umpire to be in due to their own actions.

I don't care if they're $250 million dollar ballplayers, if the umpire tells them something, they're taught and trained for their entire playing careers to follow what the umpire said. Imagine if every time the umpire made some call all the players just did whatever they wanted. That's what you're suggesting the right thing to do -- and more importantly, to teach -- is.

In every situation you mentioned except one, the umpire should fix the situation they created. If you call strike three, it's literally insane to expect all the players to assume it's really strike two until, when, exactly? Until you and the coaches all confirm it's strike three? Should this be done on every play? If an umpire says strike three, you absolutely cannot penalize any players for reacting int he appropriate way if it's not. Undo your mistake. Nobody except the most insane coaches will have a problem with that.

The only situation you described that isn't obviously a situation where the umpire caused the problem is the IFF because an umpire is not required to announce infield fly while the ball is in flight, as far as I'm aware. This one is tricky though as "in flight" could mean a lot of things, and not every ball in flight is automatically IFF. It's unreasonable to assume IFF is the call if the call is never made because it is an umpire's judgment call. Everyone at the game would rightly assume the umpire did not believe IFF should be called if, you know, he doesn't make the call.

 

[EdLovrich]

I don't care if they're $250 million dollar ballplayers, if the umpire tells them something, they're taught and trained for their entire playing careers to follow what the umpire said. Imagine if every time the umpire made some call all the players just did whatever they wanted. That's what you're suggesting the right thing to do -- and more importantly, to teach -- is.

I agree that all players (and coaches for that matter) should listen to what the umpire says--when it comes to judgment. This case is not a matter of judgment, it wasn't the umpire saying in his opinion it was the third out. It was a matter of an incorrect FACT, and yes, I believe we should be teaching our ballplayers, all of our children, to be critical thinkers. If they know that something is factually incorrect, speak up.

Now, do I expect that a 12 yo is going to do that with an adult who is an authority figure? Nope, and that is why I originally said how I would handle this was partially based on the level of play. A 14U player, more than likely and 16U and above, definitely, I would hope is going to speak up about a FACT. Of course, that presupposes that the player KNOWS WHAT THE FACT IS, hence, they need to know what the situation is. The defense didn't, the offense did.

Did even one of the fielders stop for a moment, look confused and say, "Are you sure that is three outs?" We don't know, we weren't there and the OP doesn't give that info, we are only told that the defense 'started heading off the field'. Am I saying that players should stop on every play and ask the umpire if he is sure about what the count is? Of course not, and I never said that, but the players are responsible for knowing the game situation and if they aren't sure they had better ask.

 

[radness]

I agree that all players (and coaches for that matter) should listen to what the umpire says--when it comes to judgment. This case is not a matter of judgment, it wasn't the umpire saying in his opinion it was the third out. It was a matter of an incorrect FACT, and yes, I believe we should be teaching our ballplayers, all of our children, to be critical thinkers. If they know that something is factually incorrect, speak up.

Ed, that reads like you are suggesting the players speak up to the umpires themselves, is that accurate? How many umpires do you think would agree with players speaking up to the umpire?

Now, do I expect that a 12 yo is going to do that with an adult who is an authority figure? Nope, and that is why I originally said how I would handle this was partially based on the level of play. A 14U player, more than likely and 16U and above, definitely, I would hope is going to speak up about a FACT. Of course, that presupposes that the player KNOWS WHAT THE FACT IS, hence, they need to know what the situation is.

If you want players to speak up to the Umpire you will have to ease up on your judgment on the age of ability to be intelligent. After all kids watch adult umpires fluctuate game after game after game. They understand inconsistency. If you want them to be critical of the Umpire then all those critical moments of inconsistency could easily backfire on each umpire every game.
Aka "Last game the umpire judged that play like this" " that umpire explained the rule like this "_________".... so simply said will be pitting umpire's judgment against umpire's judgment via the voice of players on the field.

Players can ask umpire's questions like what is the count and how many outs are there. But I do not think it's appropriate for players to discuss why they think the Umpire may be wrong in their judgment. Giant can of worms.

Athletes job on the field is to finish the play. Obviously human beings are not perfect, that said, some Umpire's will try to rectify bad situations the best they can. What we should do as players is focus on what we can control in the outcome of umpire's decisions be they right or wrong.

 

[EdLovrich]

RAD, what I said is that players should ask the question if an umpire was wrong on a point of fact. In the OP the umpire said an out was the third of an inning, rather than the second, This is not a judgment call, it is a fact, part of the game situation which exists regardless of the umpire's judgment. And yes, I think it is completely OK for a player to question an umpire on a point of fact, but always do so in an appropriate manner.

In the OP, for example, asking the umpire, "Are you sure that is three outs?" would be OK. Asking, "Are you sure she is out?", is not.

 

[_MIA_]

That’s a tough one. I think I let the fans screaming back and forth at each other in the stands fight it out and whoever is left standing gets their way…

 

[radness]

That’s a tough one. I think I let the fans screaming back and forth at each other in the stands fight it out and whoever is left standing gets their way…

Lol Yes....let's NOT include the players in the haggling the umpires, parents and coaches already do...