TTB and Swing Adjustability

[FP26]

Sorry I meant to quote this one.

Antonelli has a proven track record. I assume that is all just luck, right? There are many others. Some are coaching players at the highest level. But I guess the message here is that even though these coaches have shown proven success dont listen to them. Instead listen to a bunch of guys in some forum. Makes sense...

 

[TDS]

Im not quite sure how to take this post. Antonelli was a 1rst round draft pick and a major leaguer. He is not a slouch by any means. He also now coaches multitudes of pretty good players.

Are you saying he is full of crap?

An argument could be made that he may have a leg up on Bonds as to what works for mid-low level players(aka mere mortals), as he's coached hundreds of them personally. I dont think he would be preaching that feel if it didnt work for alot of his players.

Also, if your gonna play the "Antonelli wasnt as good as Bonds card" Id like to see yours and julrays swings amd exit speeds. At least weve seen teachermans.

Bonesaw, He is basically describing Rich's pattern better then Rich does... Maybe he was another ABAF kind of guy like Tewks was.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

Or one can create a bandaid (2 pivot points) and claim a match when reality shows 2 different patterns.

One is swinging down to the ball while the other is turning the barrel behind and through the ball.

Please clarify which swing is ttb and which is chopping down so I can understand your point.

 

[Shawn]

Bonesaw, He is basically describing Rich's pattern better then Rich does... Maybe he was another ABAF kind of guy like Tewks was.

Are you saying both these hitters are doing the same thing?

 

[Bobby Shirer]

In all fairness, I went out and really tried to feel what the down to the ball chop swing put in the context of the correct body positions. After a bit of really exaggerating posture (in my mind) and really forcing just the idea of the chop swing from this position I was able to achieve the correct swing. Honestly, it blew my mind. I finally got it. After a bit I was able to think differently but produce the same swing. I was able to think"get on plan early", TTB and hit great. I then was able to think the chop swing but only the hand path as I got into the right positions and the swing was basically the same.

The differences were very interesting. The chop feeling was weird to me because it was a feeling of trust. Trust something based on feel vs understanding. I was able to do it but it didn't come natural for my brain, I really had to work on trusting something that did not compute.

It took me a couple of times switching back and forth to be able to do it correctly back to back switching mental thoughts. It was kind of like humming the Star Wars theme and then immediately humming the SuperMan theme. But after a bit I got it. This is a great thing for me as a coach, because now I understand the ARods and the Ted Williams, I can now apply either method based on what is working for the kid in front of me. The hard part now is going to be determining which kid needs what method. Truely a left brain right brain thing IMO.

Body position. To maximize efficiency, the swing plane (rotational plane) should be 90 degrees to the spine. That means aligned to the shoulders or more exactly, the collar bone.
The concept of down and thru (DNT) is never defined or demonstrated as aligned to the shoulders, otherwise it wouldn't be defined as down, it would be a sideways extension (chop.)
The chopping motion is radial/ulnar deviation (also known as wrist abduction/adduction) and in a swing involves extension of the rear elbow and alignment of the door knocking knuckles to allow maximum range of motion. The "swing" takes place out in front of the body. Anterior. Emphasis must be made to not rotate the spine too much because there's a risk of pulling off of the ball.
In TTB the rear forearm is the axis of rotation. The bat stays at a 90 angle to the forearm. There is no wrist deviation. The movement is aided by the torquing of the bat using the rear hand as a fulcrum. (Push pull)
Knuckles are typically aligned in a full choke grip. The "swing" takes place in the sagittal plane, posteriorly.
In a chopping swing, to hit the ball with a positive attack angle, the spine must be tilted for alignment to the pitch plane. The feel of the arm movement is similar to a "tomahawk" swing. Very difficult to hit balls down in the zone. There is a concern to not "loose the barrel" because it creates a weakened position and the in swing correction is to raise the hands which causes an even greater loop in the swing.
In TTB the alignment of the rear forearm "axis" has great impact on the swing plane. Alignment of the spine, while still important for efficiency, isn't as critical to the swing/pitch plane alignment and allows more in swing adjustability. TTB allows a deeper/longer swing path. TTB recognizes the bat will get below the pitch/swing plane and takes advantage of it.
Many pros TTB first to get the bat on plane and to create early bat speed and then use Chopping to extend to contact.
Neither could be adequately defined as DNT in the high level swing unless the desired result was to cut the ball and create lots of backspin, or to drive the ball into the ground.
Many pros preach, practice, and demonstrate DNT but don't swing "down" and thru in the game.
I've coached for 30 years and still play.
Gotta go, I have a double header today.

 

[TDS]

Are you saying both these hitters are doing the same thing?

No, one is ABAF while the other gets leveraged fyb before contracting the core.

 

[julray]

I would like you to read back through this thread.

You, yourself, have asked for others' swings. Yet "you suck".

At one point you say you would love to hear from "mantle or ruth" as to what they are doing. Then someone posts Ted Williams' criticism of the "down to" feel and you discount it as an obscure article from 1986 that is unworthy.

Please just admit that TTB might work for some players.

I know what I said in this thread, and I haven't asked others to post their swings to judge or analyze or prove their self. I asked one person to post a(not their swing) swing because they said they could perform all the mechanics of a HL swing and still swing down to and down through. I wanted to see that.. that's it.

I have a lot of respect for Williams.. but when you have to go back to 1986 magazine article to prove a point.. that is desperate. And I am not discounting anything Williams said, but maybe somebody can explain what he means by "Down to, you can't use your hips". In my mind I see that as a person standing tall, no posture, ABAF top down swing. And that's not the mechanics of a high level swing.

TTB might work for any player, but I don't think it's the correct approach. It happens in every swing at some point, but it doesn't mean it's a good swing. IMO TTB should be the least of a hitters concerns, it's ok to understand, but should not be forced, It will occur anyway. Like I said to you before, I don't really care, listen to Antonelli.

Also like I said many times in this thread, my initial argument is not to convince coaches to change strategies, jut all the BS about feel vs real.. down to is real, TTB happens naturally.

Also when I say I suck, I mean relatively speaking. Comparing me to Atonelli is like like comparing Antonelli to Trout, Pujois, Arod, Yelich, Thome, Bonds etc etc

 

[james27503]

Body position. To maximize efficiency, the swing plane (rotational plane) should be 90 degrees to the spine. That means aligned to the shoulders or more exactly, the collar bone.
The concept of down and thru (DNT) is never defined or demonstrated as aligned to the shoulders, otherwise it wouldn't be defined as down, it would be a sideways extension (chop.)
The chopping motion is radial/ulnar deviation (also known as wrist abduction/adduction) and in a swing involves extension of the rear elbow and alignment of the door knocking knuckles to allow maximum range of motion. The "swing" takes place out in front of the body. Anterior. Emphasis must be made to not rotate the spine too much because there's a risk of pulling off of the ball.
In TTB the rear forearm is the axis of rotation. The bat stays at a 90 angle to the forearm. There is no wrist deviation. The movement is aided by the torquing of the bat using the rear hand as a fulcrum. (Push pull)
Knuckles are typically aligned in a full choke grip. The "swing" takes place in the sagittal plane, posteriorly.
In a chopping swing, to hit the ball with a positive attack angle, the spine must be tilted for alignment to the pitch plane. The feel of the arm movement is similar to a "tomahawk" swing. Very difficult to hit balls down in the zone. There is a concern to not "loose the barrel" because it creates a weakened position and the in swing correction is to raise the hands which causes an even greater loop in the swing.
In TTB the alignment of the rear forearm "axis" has great impact on the swing plane. Alignment of the spine, while still important for efficiency, isn't as critical to the swing/pitch plane alignment and allows more in swing adjustability. TTB allows a deeper/longer swing path. TTB recognizes the bat will get below the pitch/swing plane and takes advantage of it.
Many pros TTB first to get the bat on plane and to create early bat speed and then use Chopping to extend to contact.
Neither could be adequately defined as DNT in the high level swing unless the desired result was to cut the ball and create lots of backspin, or to drive the ball into the ground.
Many pros preach, practice, and demonstrate DNT but don't swing "down" and thru in the game.
I've coached for 30 years and still play.
Gotta go, I have a double header today.

You are technically right on every bit of that. No disagreement, I just was searching for the "feel" which is ambiguous. I was trying to understand what they are feeling. Not what is happening. It is like when your wife starts talking to you about a problem and you immediately try to start to solve the problem. She doesn't want you to solve the problem, just to listen to her. Sometimes if not most the time feelings contradict logic and reality. Doesn't mean they are not real.

 

[_MIA_]

Sometimes if not most the time feelings contradict logic and reality.

I have tried to use this statement with my wife during a discussion ..it typically ends with a sore back for me after sleeping on my couch for a day or 10...

 

[julray]

Antonelli has a proven track record. I assume that is all just luck, right? There are many others. Some are coaching players at the highest level. But I guess the message here is that even though these coaches have shown proven success dont listen to them. Instead listen to a bunch of guys in some forum. Makes sense...

What's his proven track record, who has Antonelli coached? I believe he coaches minor ball right now right? I give Antonelli credit though, he is clear, concise and easy to understand and I do enjoy his content