Trick play question

[uncdrew]

It's not the play you describe--which sounds like the one of the teams win the Division III college world series this year--but our travel team has run a trick play for years on the travel ball circuit that works probably 75% of the time. Situation is bases loaded and the runner on first "absent mindedly" tries to steal second "forgetting" that second base is occupied. The objective is to draw a throw from the catcher to first to score the run from third (or to get the player at first in a run down to score the run from third). This trick play involves "acting" on the part of the third base coach as well as the players and, at times, even the parents in the stands, who by now also recognize what is going on. In four years of watching this play be run, I've never seen it called as against the sporting rules, so to speak, and never seen another coach challenge it on those grounds. I don't know exactly what happened in your game, but, to me, it definitely doesn't sound like the right call by the umpire. Marriard or the The Man in Blue should be able to provide a more definitive answer.

In your example, can't the pitcher just stand there and then when the runner from first pauses (because 2B is occupied) they get called out on the lookback rule?

 

[Top_Notch]

When I played ball I played first base. If the first base runner wasn't paying attention or couldn't see a throw in from the outfield, I would pound my hand into my mitt to make it sound like I caught the ball to keep the runner close to first base. I only did this when the runner was not attentive. The design was to keep the runner going towards first base in case a fielder misplayed the throw in. Once (and only once) I was told my "antics" would get me tossed from the game if they continued by the first base umpire. I continued, because it was ingrained in my style of play and I really was curious if the umpire would toss me. I never did get tossed but when talking with others it came up as possibly falling under an umbrella rule of unsportsmanlike behavior because I didn't actually have the ball.

So, that begs the question, about the trick play of "missing" the pick off throw which included the me, the pitcher, the right fielder all chasing a ball that was never thrown. I suppose the second basemen should be tossed too, because he knew the ball was coming to him to tag the runner as he advanced.

Or, my favorite, the old hidden ball trick. (Maybe that's different because I actually had the ball?) And I actually did tag a runner out once only to look back at the first base umpire who wasn't paying attention!

My point is, I don't see how it's unsportsmanlike if the offense isn't paying attention. Bushleague? Perhaps, But I've been called worse.

 

[MTR]

My point is, I don't see how it's unsportsmanlike if the offense isn't paying attention. Bushleague? Perhaps, But I've been called worse.

IMO, the game in general and at all levels has declined from competitive attitude stand point. Don't want to hurt anyone's feeling by being smarter and more attentive. I'm waiting for the day someone suggest they should just count the bases reached safely and not give any additional value to scoring a run

 

[The Man In Blue]

Here are your possible rule citations:

USA Softball
Rule 8 — Batter Runner and Runner
Section 5 — Runners Are Entitled to Advance Without Liability to be Put Out
B. When a fielder not in obsession of the ball or not in the act of fielding a ball, obstructs the progress of a batter runner or runner.
4. When a runner, while advancing or returning to a base:
c. When a fielder fakes a tag without the ball
Effect: The obstructed runner and all other runners shall always be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgement, had there been no obstruction.
Note: If the umpire feels there is justification, a defensive player making a fake tag could be ejected for the game.

USSSA and NHFS simply rule a fake tag to be obstruction. I didn’t find any language on unsporting conduct in that situation.

So, ONLY IF there was a fake tag ... awarding third base could have been the right call if, in the umpires’ judgement, the runner would have reached third had the fake tag not occurred. If you were playing USA, an ejection could have occurred (particularly if the runner were injured - that’s in the umpire manual and I didn’t post that).

Running a fake play ... not a violation that I can find in any code.

 

[_MIA_]

When I played ball I played first base. If the first base runner wasn't paying attention or couldn't see a throw in from the outfield, I would pound my hand into my mitt to make it sound like I caught the ball to keep the runner close to first base. I only did this when the runner was not attentive. The design was to keep the runner going towards first base in case a fielder misplayed the throw in. Once (and only once) I was told my "antics" would get me tossed from the game if they continued by the first base umpire. I continued, because it was ingrained in my style of play and I really was curious if the umpire would toss me. I never did get tossed but when talking with others it came up as possibly falling under an umbrella rule of unsportsmanlike behavior because I didn't actually have the ball.

So, that begs the question, about the trick play of "missing" the pick off throw which included the me, the pitcher, the right fielder all chasing a ball that was never thrown. I suppose the second basemen should be tossed too, because he knew the ball was coming to him to tag the runner as he advanced.

Or, my favorite, the old hidden ball trick. (Maybe that's different because I actually had the ball?)

My point is, I don't see how it's unsportsmanlike if the offense isn't paying attention. Bushleague? Perhaps, But I've been called worse.

I used to keep runners close at 2B at short by pounding my glove behind them..not sure it did much but let them know I was there which actually would be detrimental on a pickoff play.. I think, right or wrong, some things are just accepted as a part of the game and some things are not

Here are your possible rule citations:

USA Softball
Rule 8 — Batter Runner and Runner
Section 5 — Runners Are Entitled to Advance Without Liability to be Put Out
B. When a fielder not in obsession of the ball or not in the act of fielding a ball, obstructs the progress of a batter runner or runner.
4. When a runner, while advancing or returning to a base:
c. When a fielder fakes a tag without the ball
Effect: The obstructed runner and all other runners shall always be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgement, had there been no obstruction.
Note: If the umpire feels there is justification, a defensive player making a fake tag could be ejected for the game.

USSSA and NHFS simply rule a fake tag to be obstruction. I didn’t find any language on unsporting conduct in that situation.

So, ONLY IF there was a fake tag ... awarding third base could have been the right call if, in the umpires’ judgement, the runner would have reached third had the fake tag not occurred. If you were playing USA, an ejection could have occurred (particularly if the runner were injured - that’s in the umpire manual and I didn’t post that).

Running a fake play ... not a violation that I can find in any code.

Well in this link:

https://usssa.com/docs/2018/2018_USSSA_FPRB_rev2.pdf

a fake tag comes under section 11 , Sportsmanship (as well the section on obstruction) with the first infraction just resulting in a team warning.

 

[The Man In Blue]

Thank you pattar! My Kindle reader has no search function in the electronic version of the USSSA manual, and I haven’t called enough it to realize I needed to dig further into the sections. Their rule book is rather, uh ... “unique” in its format.

Using that, here is some more NFHS language:

Rule 3 Players, Substitutes and Coaches
SECTION 6 BENCH AND FIELD CONDUCT
ART. 13 . . . Unsporting acts shall not be committed, including, but not limited to:
a. use of words or actions to incite or try to incite spectators to demonstrate.
b. use of profanity, intimidation and/ or deceitful tactics, or baiting or taunting; or
NOTE: The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting which is intended or designed to embarrass, ridicule or demean others under any circumstances, including race, religion, gender or national origin.
c. behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.
PENALTY: (Arts. 11 through 16) The umpire shall eject the offender from the game, unless the offense is judged to be of a minor nature. If minor, the umpire may warn the offender and eject if the offense is repeated. (Arts. 11, 13) For coaches who violate, the umpire may restrict the offender to bench/ dugout for the remainder of the game, or eject the offender.

 

[Eric F]

It's not the play you describe--which sounds like the one of the teams win the Division III college world series this year--but our travel team has run a trick play for years on the travel ball circuit that works probably 75% of the time. Situation is bases loaded and the runner on first "absent mindedly" tries to steal second "forgetting" that second base is occupied. The objective is to draw a throw from the catcher to first to score the run from third (or to get the player at first in a run down to score the run from third). This trick play involves "acting" on the part of the third base coach as well as the players and, at times, even the parents in the stands, who by now also recognize what is going on. In four years of watching this play be run, I've never seen it called as against the sporting rules, so to speak, and never seen another coach challenge it on those grounds. I don't know exactly what happened in your game, but, to me, it definitely doesn't sound like the right call by the umpire. Marriard or the The Man in Blue should be able to provide a more definitive answer.

My DD's 12U TB team used to do something similar with runners at 2B and 3B, including the coach yelling "back" to the runner stealing from 2B. It worked sometimes. Better teams would just hold the ball.

 

[bmakj]

DD and her teams have always been taught, except in specific circumstances, worry about the lead runner. works to keep them from getting distracted by hijinks of runners behind.

 

[Top_Notch]

T
ART. 13 . . . Unsporting acts shall not be committed, including, but not limited to:
a. use of words or actions to incite or try to incite spectators to demonstrate.
b. use of profanity, intimidation and/ or deceitful tactics, or baiting or taunting; or

So, am I to interpret that language as trick plays are unsportsmanlike?

 

[The Man In Blue]

DD and her teams have always been taught, except in specific circumstances, worry about the lead runner. works to keep them from getting distracted by hijinks of runners behind.

Why are they staring at the runner’s behind?