Travel Ball Realizations

[Indiana]

Great thread! I have a son who plays baseball (14U) and a daughter who plays softball (18U); both are pitchers (heaven help me). DS's baseball team has nine pitchers. Now, are all 9 boys seasoned pitchers with Greg Maddux - like command? No. The top one or two are. The rest are competent. I think a "competent" pitcher can make it through the batting order once before he starts to get rocked. A slower pitcher can even have a weird sort of advantage since his extreme slowness and "gravity drop" take a little getting used to. I've seen the same thing in softball. Girls that I've seen really hit the stuffing out of the ball hit pop-ups against a slow pitcher the first time they see her. It takes lots of time as a coach to develop a game plan which utilizes a #3 or #4 pitcher in middle relief (and nerves of steel as you watch each pitch float its way in at 36 mph) but it can be done.

I am definitely in favor of pitch counts or innings limits. In baseball, it absolutely increases demand, which increases supply. The same can happen with softball. I agree, that only a few kids are going to truly put in the time and effort in order to become a GREAT pitcher, but meanwhile lots of "decent" pitchers are getting developed. Who knows - maybe one of these "decent" pitchers will discover, at age 16 and following a 6 inch growth spurt, that she loves pitching more than life itself and starts putting in the time and effort required to become great.

I don't think pitching limits will mean the end to HS softball. HS softball already has a host of problems, but I hope that it does stick around; it has its merits. My DD was the sole varsity pitcher for her HS team - she suffered a season ending herniated disc at the very beginning of the season. The sole JV pitcher stepped up and did fine. The team didn't win much, but they did play out the season and had some good times doing it. A few girls who had never pitched before took a crash course in pitching and were able to pitch in relief. Sure, it wasn't awe-inspiring rises, drops, fastballs and curves, but the ball did make it over the plate and our outfielders made some great catches.

To paraphrase Bull Durham : "this is a simple game. You throw the ball. You catch the ball. You hit the ball." And then Moneyball: "It's hard not to romanticize baseball." (or softball, in this case) A 12U #1 pitcher is actually just a 12 year old kid. Let her pitch, let her rest, let her have fun. Don't break her back.

 

[riseball]

...I think a "competent" pitcher can make it through the batting order once before he starts to get rocked. A slower pitcher can even have a weird sort of advantage since his extreme slowness and "gravity drop" take a little getting used to. I've seen the same thing in softball. Girls that I've seen really hit the stuffing out of the ball hit pop-ups against a slow pitcher the first time they see her.

I have always classified pitchers into one of 3 categories.

Dominant - These pitchers have the ability to shut down an offense and are game changers if you have one. Give them 2 - 3 runs on the board, play solid defense and you will win.

Competent - They get the job done. Not a lot of K's but few walks. The other team will hit the ball and you need to play defense. They will give up some runs but will keep you in the game. Once or twice through the order and they will start to get hit.

Developing - Better have a solid lead and a short leash if you put them in the circle.

From what I have seen at the 18U/College level very rarely will a team have two dominant pitchers. And most teams may have 1 dominant pitcher and 2 - 3 competent pitchers. Quite a few teams get by on a staff of what would be classified as competent pitchers.

To the point made by Indiana, sometimes a dominate pitcher can set up a competent pitcher who will come in and dominate. My DD is a dominant pitcher who throws into the high 60's. I have seen her start to get hit and by bringing in the competent pitcher who is significantly slower with good movement and control she makes hitters look silly. But often after that 2nd look things may start to go downhill.

 

[Greenmonsters]

I'd like to think that the development of more competent pitchers and utilization of a pitching staff could be done in softball without imposing innings limits.

In baseball, there is pressure from the top (MLB orgs) down to prevent overuse of pitchers in college and that trickles down to college, serious travel ball, and to a lesser extent (mostly because of school size), high school. At the younger levels where there are no innings/pitch limits, there at least seems to be some recognition by the coaches/pitchers/pitcher' parents that overuse should be avoided. Make no mistake, the driving force from the very top is not a concern about pitcher's long-term holistic well-being, it’s about asset protection and return on investment i.e., it’s purely business driven. And despite the billions invested in their assets (player personnel) and millions available for preventative measures and research, MLB still doesn't have it right as evidenced by the high frequency of debilitating arm injuries requiring surgery.

If you look at MLB, there are very few pitchers in the "dominant" category - really no more than 2 per team (an ace starter and closer). The rest of the bunch, plus all the minor league pitching talent, falls into the "competent" or "developing" categories. The fate of each MLB team rests by and large on how well their "competent" pitchers perform and the health of their 1 or 2 dominant pitchers.

SB has a history of riding the "dominant" until they drop or the game/season/tournament is over. Its not hard to be a successful coach with a dominant pitcher, that is until that pitcher runs out of gas or physically breaks down and you have to go to infrequently used options. The WCWS is full of such examples. Lighten the burden on the dominant and further develop the competent during the regular season would be a better option – both for the team and the pitchers. Managing a pitching staff is much more difficult than managing a single dominant pitcher; however, if the other pieces of the pitching staff puzzle aren’t explored and toyed with during the regular season, it ain’t gonna come together during the big tournament.

How could we make this happen? With a top down approach like BB, if pitching staffs at the top SB level (D1 college as there are so few pro SB options) were used, the demand for competent pitchers will increase (there will always be a demand for dominant pitchers). The lower levels, TB in this case (rather than college as in BB), will respond by increasing the supply. Or, using a bottom up approach, spread the innings out among a staff and focus on producing more competent pitchers, recognizing that dominant ones will emerge. A good team will be able to attract more quality pitcher is it is known that innings will be shared. And if there are more spots available, more players will work to develop their talent and fill them. Better yet, use both the top-down and bottom-up approaches!

I think the time is overdue for a D1 team to buck conventional wisdom and turn some heads using a pitching staff approach. And for TB teams to focus primarily on player development, rather than titles and trophies. And for all to take a more proactive interest in preserving their pitchers’ health.

ETA - somewhat idealized, but....

 

[Greenmonsters]

I have always classified pitchers into one of 3 categories.

Dominant - These pitchers have the ability to shut down an offense and are game changers if you have one. Give them 2 - 3 runs on the board, play solid defense and you will win.

Competent - They get the job done. Not a lot of K's but few walks. The other team will hit the ball and you need to play defense. They will give up some runs but will keep you in the game. Once or twice through the order and they will start to get hit.

Developing - Better have a solid lead and a short leash if you put them in the circle.

From what I have seen at the 18U/College level very rarely will a team have two dominant pitchers. And most teams may have 1 dominant pitcher and 2 - 3 competent pitchers. Quite a few teams get by on a staff of what would be classified as competent pitchers.

To the point made by Indiana, sometimes a dominate pitcher can set up a competent pitcher who will come in and dominate. My DD is a dominant pitcher who throws into the high 60's. I have seen her start to get hit and by bringing in the competent pitcher who is significantly slower with good movement and control she makes hitters look silly. But often after that 2nd look things may start to go downhill.

RB - agreed, particularly after your edit!

There are 21 outs in a regulation SB game. Let's assume that getting those 21 outs equates to approx. 30 at bats (hopefully less!), which means that 2 pitchers can split a game without facing any batter more than 2 times. Evenly split, 3 pitchers would only face one batter for a second time. Yea, it takes more effort to learn how to manage, and more experience to effectively leverage, a pitching staff, but the trade off is that as a game or tournament nears its conclusion, you are in a stronger position with more options than your opponent.

 

[riseball]

RB - agreed, particularly after your edit!

There are 21 outs in a regulation SB game. Let's assume that getting those 21 outs equates to approx. 30 at bats (hopefully less!), which means that 2 pitchers can split a game without facing any batter more than 2 times. Evenly split, 3 pitchers would only face one batter for a second time. Yea, it takes more effort to learn how to manage, and more experience to effectively leverage, a pitching staff, but the trade off is that as a game or tournament nears its conclusion, you are in a stronger position with more options than your opponent.

I was very fortunate to have 2 dominant pitchers last year. As strong as they were as individuals they worked best as a team. I would start one and then swap them out half way through the game. Regardless of their performance. Even if they were dominating I pulled the trigger and made the swap. It was a leap of faith for me, the pitchers, and the team but it worked very well. The result was consistent great pitching and both stayed fresh and subsequently could pitch more quality pitches in a given day. I also had two competent pitchers that would mop up when we had a lead to keep the pitch counts of the other two as low as possible.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

I was very fortunate to have 2 dominant pitchers last year. As strong as they were as individuals they worked best as a team. I would start one and then swap them out half way through the game. Regardless of their performance. Even if they were dominating I pulled the trigger and made the swap. It was a leap of faith for me, the pitchers, and the team but it worked very well. The result was consistent great pitching and both stayed fresh and subsequently could pitch more quality pitches in a given day. I also had two competent pitchers that would mop up when we had a lead to keep the pitch counts of the other two as low as possible.

I was fortunate to have the ability to have 2 totally different pitchers, and a 3rd as relief when the others needed rest. My DD was a LH pitcher, good speed, worked below the belt, had good movement on the corners, and a good off speed. The other was a RH a tad faster, threw a lot upstairs with movement, and a decent change up. The 3rd RH, about average A class speed, but had a devastating change up.

There were games one could go the whole distance, games when the starter got rocked and plan "B" came in, games where we played 1 half and 1 half, games where we ran all three to keep those better hitters off balance. Sometimes it worked like we needed to patent it, sometimes it didn't and I looked at my fellow coaches like, "who's stupid idea was that".

 

[FCA]

My DD works her tail off to be the pitcher no one wants to see in the circle. The hours spent on her own, outside of practice and lessons, working on her "craft". Her reward for all that extra work is to pitch. period. If a coach tried to take that away in the name of "well we need develop Suzy", I can assure you with no prompting from me, she would find a new team. It's just her nature and she wants to be the #1. Do I want her to pitch every game, no way, pitching suicide. Should she get more innings than Suzy? Absolutely, way more. She has earned it minute by minute, every day, every week.
Softball will have a larger pool of competent and possibly dominant pitchers, when the players themselves are willing to put in more than the average player and not feel "entitled" to be a pitcher because they happen to be able to not walk 4 batters in a row. That is the case where we are. Lots of "A" teams (whatever that means these days), lots of pitchers. Problem - Not "A" quality, why, because little Suzy pitches for an "A" team, so she doesn't have to work hard. They will still make their pilgrimage to AzFro-Sho, or Sparkler, or where ever, she will still pitch because parents paid a crap ton of money to get there.

 

[MTR]

1) teams never have enough pitchers or players though they have 3 to 4 teams per division and if they had two teams only they would have enough

IMO, the largest issue in TB. It is no longer a "team" sport, but a sport in which teams are a small group of individuals. It eliminates much of in-house competition for position once the season starts. It will, at times, keep a player from expanding their abilities because she gets stuck at a position the coach needs to fill. Sometimes can eliminate the ability for a player in a rut to step back and take a game or two off to catch their composure and it is not always possible to "play through" a slump. And the biggest issue is the carrot chase. No one wants to take a game off because that may cost them a ride which is utter non-sense.

There is nothing wrong with carrying a full roster and working the players around as long as you have an intelligent coach who can get everyone an equal amount of playing time. Some people tend to forget it is a game, not a job interview.

 

[CoogansBluff]

Been there. Done that. I was NOT always the best nor was I the one pitching the championship games. But you know what? I freakin' loved it. So I worked my tail off and enjoyed every single second with my dad and my pitching coaches...then eventually...it pays off.

Curious to hear more about this. What was the turning point for you? Was their a stage where you suddenly began passing people? And how much of it had to do with your willingness to our-work everyone? Were there times when you thought your work wasn't going to pay off?

 

[amandascarborough]

Curious to hear more about this. What was the turning point for you? Was their a stage where you suddenly began passing people? And how much of it had to do with your willingness to our-work everyone? Were there times when you thought your work wasn't going to pay off?

This is actually something over the past couple of years I have given a lot of thought and always am trying to take a look back my travel ball days! I was not always the #1 pitcher for my team growing up until probably my junior/senior year, and even then we had several good pitchers on my travel team and it was always good competition. In high school, my fresh/soph year I pitched behind a girl who was a junior/senior. I earned my way up to the #1 once she was gone. In travel ball I started as a #2/#3, then solidified #2 then later was in competition for #1. And then, once I actually got to college, I was the #1 pitcher starting on opening day as a freshman in the circle. Then it was solidified. But there was so much that led up to that moment...

However, when I was growing up, I never thought of it that way. I never thought of how much I enjoyed playing softball by the number of innings I was pitching, I just knew that I liked to do it. What I think was a game changer for me was the fact that I had an amazing pitching and hitting coach (they were married) from around the ages of 11-15 who taught me and showed me the foundation of mechanics of a swing and a pitch. They did this by constantly breaking down the pitch/swing from the very beginning. (Let me focus more on the pitching aspect.......) Because of this, I was a little bit slower to "come around" when it game to full pitch progress and speed and consistency. There would be days where over half of the lesson I would not pitch a ball but just look in a mirror and work on a balance beam and do tubing drills. They taught me through SO MANY Drills about where my body mechanically should be. At the time when I was younger, I thought it was a bit boring, but here was the kicker......we would do video analysis about 4 times a year. Back then, video analysis consisted of pulling out a video camera, then putting the tape into the VCR and slow-moing the VCR and holding up photos of old pitchers like Lisa Fernandez, Dee Dee Weiman and some japanese pitchers. There was a check list of different mechanics that I, myself, needed to look at as we went through the full video analysis and write down what I did right and what I did wrong. Why I liked this was because we did it enough to where I could see I was PROGRESSING and getting BETTER because of my hard work. I literally got to SEE it on the screen. So not only was I working hard in between lessons on the things I knew I needed to adjust, I was able to get satisfaction by seeing the progress I was having. My parents were not result oriented in the sense that they were constantly letting me know I was a #2 pitcher or I pitched x amount of innings and the other pitcher pitched x amount of innings. No. They were focused on the fact that I was getting better at these lessons and my mechanics were forming properly. I could SEE it, they could see it. That part was more the focus than the playing time & field RESULTS. I saw what I needed to get better at, I went back and worked hard at it, and then I was able to see the results of my mechanics getting better. We all need our little forms of "success" along the way in this softball career. How are you defining success? By playing time or by actually getting better and progressing at something that you love to do?

Were there days where I felt like I wanted to quit? YES, absolutely. Were there days where I cried, 100%. It's normal. I guarantee that every college player out there has had those days. My parents never panicked when I had those days, they took it in stride. They did not overreact, which caused me not to overreact. The thing when I look back that was defining was that it was just 1 bad day. 1 bad day didn't turn into a bad week. 1 bad day was just that. The next day, after I breathed a little bit, got some sleep, I woke up with a fresh outlook and ready to go back at it and practice and take on the world. But that's how you know you really have a passion or it. You are wanting to go out and practice and the bad days don't linger for long. When you are back at it practicing, you are pitching with getting better in mind, not pitching with # of innings pitched in mind.

Lastly, I will say, the best thing my parents told me growing up and would remind me during hard times was that I didn't HAVE to play softball if I didn't want to, and they would love me anyway. They would ask me if I still enjoyed playing and they would genuinely listen to my answer. We communicate with so much more than words - with our actions, body language, tone. They asked me in a way I knew they cared and I felt like I could be honest with them, and I answered by more than just a simple, "yes" in the way that I was motivated to practice and how I looked when I was out playing ball.

Many just see me as an All American and during my time at Texas A&M one of the best players in the Big 12....but I am so much more than that BECAUSE of the time and emotions I invested growing up. I am GLAD I wasn't the #1 pitcher the entire time when I was younger. It taught me so much more. Mainly about myself and giving me the ability to help make my own decisions, work extremely hard at something and then feel the reward of what it is like to actually EARN a #1 spot and earn the awards that followed in college. That work ethic and the process of earning mechanics when I was younger made me into the coach I am today. Because of that foundation of mechanics that I would spend hours upon hours without a ball and paying attention to my own craft, I have the knowledge that goes along with pitching and was able to stand at 5'5 and throw 70mph especially once I got stronger and developed physically towards my my final years of high school and into college. Everyone comes around at a different time and it's unfair to compare yourself to anyone else other than you.

Soooo....I am sorry that this is a longer answer, but this particular topic defines me, what I coach, how I coach and the career I lead. Never would I have thought that when I was 9-10 and someone told me that I never would be a pitcher that I would play at the D1 level, and then lead me past college to coaching clinics around the country and being a college softball analyst on TV. I can't HELP but think and know that anyone else can find their own passion AND if you have a passion for it, if you REALLY have a passion for it, then things are going to work out. The things that don't work out are the things that shouldn't be forced and aren't supposed to happen, anyway. There are ups and downs, but the ups are all greater than the downs if you truly love to do it. If you don't love it, then you let the downs define you, and you'll eventually end up quitting. But in my mind, it just means you are meant to do something else anyway. I can only talk about my experience and my own story....but looking back, I think it's a pretty dang good one and it's more the "norm" of what softball players across the country go through growing up WITHOUT being the #1 pitcher their whole life.

I appreciate you caring enough to ask about it. Thanks for letting me share, even if it was a little long!