Timing: What's more difficult?

[Rocketech1]

Is it harder to face slower pitching or faster pitching in the same game after facing pretty fast pitching? We recently had a head coach who argued that it is more difficult for a batter to adjust to a slower relief pitcher once the batters had seen a faster pitcher in the previous 1 or 2 at bats and therefore would pitch the slower pitcher with more off speed stuff in the later innings 4-7, generally. But if this is the case, why are most relief pitchers in MLB throwing heat to close the game vs. say a knuckleballer like Tim Wakefield or R.A. Dickey?

 

[rdbass]

Might depend on the age. If that was maybe true why don't you see that in high school and college games. If a team was taking their faster pitcher out to put a slower pitcher in I'm guessing that team would be losing. So, It might be that the winning team is being overly aggressive against the slower pitcher causing some misses on the swings. If a good team was hitting a faster pitcher they will 'light up' the slower pitcher. JMHO

 

[SoCal_Dad]

IMO, a pitcher that uses more offspeed pitches is not necessarily a slower pitcher. Eric Gagne's fastball was mid-to-upper 90's, but it was his unrecognizable change-up that made him so effective.

Talking top/predominant speed, it is better to incrementally increase speed than to lower it a notch - especially if batters are struggling to catch up with the previous pitcher. OTOH, a substantial decrease in speed can be very effective and frustrating for the opposing hitters.

MLB closers typically rely on "stuff" - speed, movement (Rivera, Sutter) and/or change of speed (Gagne, Hoffman). BTW, Wakefield earned 22 saves in his career and did quite a bit of relieving 1999-2002.

 

[CoogansBluff]

But if this is the case, why are most relief pitchers in MLB throwing heat to close the game vs. say a knuckleballer like Tim Wakefield or R.A. Dickey?

I don't think the 'closer' analogy works because the situation you describe on your team is about two pitchers of similar effectiveness, one faster, one slower. (That's what it sounded like.)

A closer in MLB isn't the closer because he's the fastest pitcher. He's the closer because he's the best pitcher (for one inning). The best pitchers for one inning are generally going to be very fast. Dominant pitching for a short period is generally fast pitching (faster than normal, I mean. Not saying it has to be 98 mph). Also, I don't know what this adds to the conversation, but fwiw, the first relief pitcher elected to the Hall of Fame was a knuckleballer, Hoyt Wilhelm.

Anyway, none of that means that this head coach was right. If I had to guess, I'd think that it's better to start the pitcher who is the most unusual, then relieve with 'more typical'. That way, they have to adjust twice - once to this pitcher who's unusual, then back to normal.

But I also think that these decisions really don't matter that much, that surely hitters aren't ruined by seeing an atypically fast or slow pitcher. If we're so worried about that, shouldn't we stop giving them front toss before the game? Wouldn't that ruin their timing too?

 

[softballphreak]

Many batters will tell you it's harder to hit slower pitchers. Pretty often you will see better teams struggle with slower pitchers for the first 3 or 4 innings.

I agree that it is tough to adjust to a slow pitcher following a faster pitcher. On the other hand, it probably would be very unwise to follow a slow pitcher with a fast pitcher. The batters in that case would be "staying back". And probably killing the ball.

A side note, leaving the same pitcher in too long happens way too often. Batters adjust pretty well by the 6th or 7th inning. And many games are lost because softball coaches seem to have a tendency to stay with their ace too long.

 

[softballphreak]

I don't think the 'closer' analogy works because the situation you describe on your team is about two pitchers of similar effectiveness, one faster, one slower. (That's what it sounded like.)

A closer in MLB isn't the closer because he's the fastest pitcher. He's the closer because he's the best pitcher (for one inning). The best pitchers for one inning are generally going to be very fast. Dominant pitching for a short period is generally fast pitching (faster than normal, I mean. Not saying it has to be 98 mph). Also, I don't know what this adds to the conversation, but fwiw, the first relief pitcher elected to the Hall of Fame was a knuckleballer, Hoyt Wilhelm.

Anyway, none of that means that this head coach was right. If I had to guess, I'd think that it's better to start the pitcher who is the most unusual, then relieve with 'more typical'. That way, they have to adjust twice - once to this pitcher who's unusual, then back to normal.

But I also think that these decisions really don't matter that much, that surely hitters aren't ruined by seeing an atypically fast or slow pitcher. If we're so worried about that, shouldn't we stop giving them front toss before the game? Wouldn't that ruin their timing too?

I believe pre-game front toss is very detrimental when the batters are thrown "high speed" wiffle balls from 15 or so feet. If the front toss is slower that helps them stay back.

 

[crankermo]

RD,

It's becoming more popular to find some movement pitchers to mix and match with hard throwers. The frehman phenom at Oregon, Sheridon Hawkins, throws upper 50's and they mixed her with their senior flamethrower and had great results. We have a girl on Brooke's team that throws upper 50's with a rev rate of mid 30's, staggering numbers but the truth.

There's a reason my lefties throwing mid 80's get paid millions in the majors. One of my favorite Cardinals of all time, John Tudor, threw low to mid 80's and broke more bats than anyone. Velocity is over rated IMO. Give me a pitcher with legit movement and I will beat your team of elite hitters.

 

[medicpelle]

As a coach of a 12uA really good hitting team and a former BB player I can tell you that the adjustment either way is difficult for a hitter. My girls can straight crush the upper pitching as far as speed we see in 12u/14u but in some of the open tournaments we have played they have a hard time adjusting to a slow pitching. Adjustments were made but it took a couple of times through to adjust. Compare it to any hard throwing pitcher in BB...what makes their off speed or sliders so effective? it's not location its the change in speed. In contrast a pitcher like Maddox with pinpoint location mixing speeds hitting corners then having to face a flame thrower out of the pen. Rivera never n had dominating "speed" he had movement which has baffled hitters for almost 20 years. Change of speed without movement or location with good hitters equals a bad day for pitchers over time.

 

[coach james]

Speaking from my 14u team last summer, whenever they faced a decent pitcher (55 mph-ish) they would hit like beasts, but LORD help us if a 40ish girl came in... that looked like a joke.

 

[CoogansBluff]

If these slow pitchers are so effective at throwing off hitters, why don't coaches look for them during tryouts?