Teaching pitchers under 21 YOA breaking pitches

[Dusty]

*sigh* ok, I'll try this again...

This isn't a "how do I teach my 10 and 12 yo dd's to throw breaking pitches?" thread. It is a "how (technique) do you teach young (anything under 21) pitchers to throw breaking pitches?"

As far as the family doctor's advice, I'd give a lot more credibility to the advice of a specialist than I would my family practice pediatrician who I trust with the overall health of my dd's.

 

[jofus13]

Dusty, there are several breaking pitches, and multiple ways to grip/pitch most of them, so this is a tough generic question to answer in a single post, imho (and I'm not an instructor, I just sit on the bucket and catch while the guy I pay does the instructing).

Looking at your original post, it seems to me that you are talking about what I would possibly call (in baseball, at least) a "cutter", for example. A 4-seam fastball normally goes "straight", but a 2-seam fastball will cut one way or the other, depending on finger pressure among other variables.

At least in my experience, that isn't the same as a pitcher throwing a "curve" ball, in which (at least according to our instructor, there may be different and/or better ways), the hand cuts across the body to the opposite hip, with the hand being under the ball, which kinda rolls off the thumb, around the time the hand is passing the navel.

For another example, on a screw ball, the weight distrubution at release is a little different, and the hand ends up going more towards third base (for a righty).

A drop ball can either be a peel, or a turn-over, and the weight is a little more towards the front foot (my DD just shortens her stride about a foot, which seems to work well for her) with the pitching shoulder more "on top" of the release.

A couple disclaimers....I've seen people (here and other places) all over the spectrum on breaking pitches and how to throw them...for example, I believe Hillhouse says something like "every pitch has to look the same, all the way to release", but I'm not sure how you can throw breaking pitches that way (he may not believe in breaking pitches, for that matter, iirc....I may be wrong). So, just like batting, there are a lot of different opinions/methods, etc.

 

[Dusty]

Thanks Jofus, It looks like the mods peeled off my post to my other thread and made a fresh topic out of it. I bombed out of LL baseball in 5th grade so I was only vaguely aware of the difference between a cutter and a screwball, per se, which is why I generically called them "breaking pitches" in my other thread.

I have the Hillhouse video and he talks about getting a drop ball to "cut" inside or outside depending on finger pressure upon release. I'm of the belief that it's better to get a good drop than curve or screw so maybe a better question would have been the relative value of learning a curve or screw.

 

[CoachFP]

Thanks Jofus, It looks like the mods peeled off my post to my other thread and made a fresh topic out of it. I bombed out of LL baseball in 5th grade so I was only vaguely aware of the difference between a cutter and a screwball, per se, which is why I generically called them "breaking pitches" in my other thread.

I have the Hillhouse video and he talks about getting a drop ball to "cut" inside or outside depending on finger pressure upon release. I'm of the belief that it's better to get a good drop than curve or screw so maybe a better question would have been the relative value of learning a curve or screw.

In my opinion, learning a curve and screwball (if it even exists) is detrimental to later being able to throw a drop ball. Learn the drop first.

 

[Coach-n-Dad]

I agree with learning the drop before curve or screwball. It is much more difficult to hit a ball that breaks vertically than to hit one that breaks horizontally.

IMO, a true "curve" is a useless pitch as it only breaks horizontally (on plane with the bat), but the "cutter" that is mentioned here is a much more effective pitch because in addition to breaking horizontally it also breaks vertically (ball spins diagonally).

A screwball falls into the same category as the "cutter", not only breaking in toward the batter but also up. I personally know that the screwball exists because I have been hit in the shoulder by one, thinking it was coming into my chest.

 

[halskinner]

I agree with learning the drop before curve or screwball. It is much more difficult to hit a ball that breaks vertically than to hit one that breaks horizontally.

IMO, a true "curve" is a useless pitch as it only breaks horizontally (on plane with the bat), but the "cutter" that is mentioned here is a much more effective pitch because in addition to breaking horizontally it also breaks vertically (ball spins diagonally).

A screwball falls into the same category as the "cutter", not only breaking in toward the batter but also up. I personally know that the screwball exists because I have been hit in the shoulder by one, thinking it was coming into my chest.

Coachdad, you might have been tagged by a riseball that went awry for any of a number of reason.

Unintentionally; If the area in the circle where the pitcher's stride foot touches down is deep and loose, I have seen that added little jarring effect cause the riseballs to go 'up-and-in.

Intentionally; If you throw either a cut riseball or bent fingered riseball and you drop the throwing shoulder an instant before release, it will change the axis of the spin and can also turn that into a vicious breaking up-and-in.

Same exact riseball mechanics EXCEPT for dropping the shoulder at release. The timing is crucial and if you are catcher / dad, you better be wearing a mask if your kid starts trying this. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

We used to call it 'Ducking under the ball' whenI was young. Of course we were using concrete softballs back then. A couple of those linedrived off your head and sat the bench for a few games!

I just gave up a little training secret there. Did your PC ever teach you that one ????

 

[jofus13]

Well, Angela Tincher has had a pretty good career pitching mainly riseballs, drops, and changes. She says that she never even tried to learn a "screwball".

 

[Coach JV]

Every time your DD 'Moves up' the fastball is seldom thrown. If it is, it will be
primarily on the 1st pitch. My dd throws several pitches but prefers rise and drop-curve. She has a good screw, but it comes in a bit slow, her curve gets hit (perhaps because it is on the same plane) but the majority of these are slow grounders to Pitcher or 2b. I believe any ball that breaks is a good pitch.

Well, Angela Tincher has had a pretty good career pitching mainly riseballs, drops, and changes. She says that she never even tried to learn a "screwball".

 

[Mark H]

I agree with learning the drop before curve or screwball. It is much more difficult to hit a ball that breaks vertically than to hit one that breaks horizontally.

IMO, a true "curve" is a useless pitch as it only breaks horizontally (on plane with the bat), but the "cutter" that is mentioned here is a much more effective pitch because in addition to breaking horizontally it also breaks vertically (ball spins diagonally).

Well if you throw it at the shoulders that's true. The swing plane is not level to the ground on a pitch at the knees. My problem with the flat curve is the break is easier to read given the vantage point of the eyes. As you allude to, breaking away from the plane of the bat is a good thing, but that swing plane varies from level to the ground on a shoulder high swing to quite steep on a low inside pitch. Throw a flat curve at the hitter breaking it on to the the low inside corner and the pitch WOULD be breaking fairly close to away from the swing plane. Photo 12 of 16, Fastpitch

My favorite pitch would be a ball breaking down and in to a hitter. Or maybe a change with late movement.

 

[Mark H]

her curve gets hit (perhaps because it is on the same plane) but the majority of these are slow grounders to Pitcher or 2b..

Sounds like a good result to me.

I believe any ball that breaks is a good pitch.

Unless it's breaking INTO the middle of the zone.