TB vs HS Poll

[YoungBuck]

I could not agree more when you say that public school athletics should be free and have minimal if any cuts. That's my biggest 'beef' against athletics in school is that as most of us have pointed out in previous threads public school athletics eliminates those individuals that can not afford the fees now associated to play.

 

[CoogansBluff]

TB is chosen and focused on winning.
.

I've seen some TB situations that were less focused on winning than HS ball. Lots of TB teams are showcase and basically just play exhibitions. Others play for trophies, but what do they mean? For 80 percent of TB teams, winning a tournament just means you've selected a tournament that you can win. It's not playing the highest level possible every time out.

In HS ball, winning a conference or state title has some meaning. It means you're the best among those schools that meet the same criteria (ie, enrollment size). DD was a role player last year as a freshman on a HS team that reached the semifinals of state. The thrill of victory and agony of defeat during the playoff run was probably 10 times as intense as any TB experience that DD has had.

 

[slugger3]

I think they each have their places. I strongly believe that HS athletics should be available to every student as part of their education to be a healthy adult who knows what a team and team effort are. Saying that, I think they should be free, and have minimal, if any cuts. They also have a responsibility to let all the members play some-not equally on JV and Varsity levels, but equal practice time and a chance to earn a starting spot. The coaches also have a responsibility to play all the students and it shouldn't be all about winning all the time...
TB is chosen and focused on winning.
That's why my DD plays both. Sure, she gets frustrated with the 8 error games and the girls who can't remember if you have to tag the runner or the bag in a force, but she's learning different lessons.

I respectfully disagree with about 95% of this...
Yes, every kid should have an equal CHANCE at making the team, and an equal CHANCE at practice time. But that's where equality ends.

Free...no...nothing is free. Eventually someone pays for equipment, travel/fuel costs, coaching, etc...
Did your DD help out with any and all fundraisers that were offered? ...Or did your DD just expect to just show up and play?...
Did your DD offer to help raise money by working in a concession stand, while all of their buddies were in the stands munching popcorn and sipping hot chocolate, that my DD's just served them?... Or did your DD just show up and expect to play?...
Did your DD go play/practice with the girls in an impromptu practice? Or were they playing video games with their parents on one of the 5 PlayStations they have in their home? ...Or did your DD just expect to show up and play?...
As a parent, are you working with your DD's 30-40 hours per week, on school work and sporting skills, after working 50-60 hours per week at your job? Or did you just expect your DD to show up and play?
Yes, all of these are scenarios that we have experienced ever since my DD's joined HS sports.

HS sporting/athletics is NOT a required part of a students education to be a "healthy adult." I believe it should be up to the parents to introduce their kids to sports and take the iPhone/device out of the kids hand, and play ball with their kids in their back yard, and or park. And if the child is good enough to make a team, then great. If not, I'm sorry.

Aren't all organized sports competitive in nature? That's why it's a sport. Other wise it's just practice/play, isn't it?

I've told my DD's many times, it's not if your team wins, it's that all of the players on the team give 100% effort, 100% of the time, no matter what you do. Don't beat yourself, let the other team beat you. Isn't that what competitive sports is about?
And normally, winning comes to the team that gives 100% effort, 100% of the time.

Other wise you're just on a Play Date/Patty Cake team. And if that is what HS sports is turning into, I'll guarantee you, my DD's will be the first one out the door.

 

[JAD]

How do you define "quality experience"?

HS games are during the week and within a reasonable distance of the house. TB is on the weekends and requires a commute and hotel rooms.
HS is played with your classmates for "school pride" while TB is usually a higher quality of competition with random teammates.
HS coaches are limited to players within their district. TB coaches can recruit from multiple states.
HS players are stuck with their coach. TB players can change teams.
HS softball offers very little college coach exposure, TB hosts showcases.

 

[Slappinandstealin]

Gee, I really upset slugger3...answer is yes, yes and yes. My H is an officer of the boosters and our entire family works very hard to fund raise for our HS team so everyone can play and have good equipment. But some girls are poor, their parents(if theyare involved) are working 2 and 3 jobs already, and they can't help their kids. So we do. My husband coached rec ball for years, some girls dads or moms never came to a single game. These poor kids are already raising themselves.
So I think public school teams should be open to everyone.
Saying that I don't think no cuts is a reasonable policy for every team. But there should be at least 1 team per season that makes no cuts so those latchkey kids have a place to go and something healthy to do. And yes, I think it should be a part of public education paid for by taxpayers. In our school, our softball, track and lacrosse teams have no cuts in spring. In fall it's girls swimming and XC, in winter winter track, boys swimming. That's part of an education and benefits our society.
Anyway after we solve society's problems, we can focus on winning some softball games. For our family, HS is community and travel is competition...

 

[slugger3]

Slappinandstealin, first off, you stated that your DD played both HS and TB. And being on a TB team, I had a pretty good idea that you, and your DD, know what I'm talking about....
So for that I apologize, those questions were not directed at you. I worded them wrong and for that I apologize as well.
They were generalized questions that many of us face as parents with kids who are serious and passionate about competitive sports...
As for latchkey kids...the only way their participation should effect another child's, is if they are better than them in a sport.
As for guaranteed participation, that's called rec league.
How many of these kids you are talking about have lower athletic skills, not because of income, but because of the lack of parental involvement? Regardless of income status.
How many parents spend countless hours every day on social media, when they could be spending time playing catch or shootin' hoops with their kids?
I'm not on any social media sites. And as for our kids, they get very limited time on those sites.
So my kids, and your kids, have to lose playing time, because little Susie or Johnny's parents don't play catch with them? Because their mom and dad spent countless hours on social media, or are "gamers", or that big black SUV is more important than their kid being able to swing a bat.
I'm sorry, but life isn't fair.
From what I'm seeing in recent years in our schools is this. Many parents are starting to get their kids into sports in 7th-10 grade, because they feel like they need more social interaction with others. (that are in panic mode because they can see the lack of social skills their kids have)
And how did it get to that point? Well, the parents were the one's who let their kids play video games on a school night until the wee hours of the morning. Or they allowed their kids to be on social media um-teen hours per day.
So my kids, and your kids, have to lose game time because of that?...
Is it cultural or societal shift that has caused this? Yes.
But a lot of kids are in latch key because both parents work, so they can drive a $60k SUV, and live in a fancy home.
Many of us as kids, had a stay at home mom, which meant countless hours at the ball park. Our house was a dump, and 2 of the 4 cars my dad had as a kid did not have reverse. (Seriously) ...Side note we lived in East Bumblefrick, MN. So we had a lot of wide open spaces to turn around in...
"Why do I need reverse, when I'm driving forward", my dad would sarcastically and laughingly say....

Giving kids, with no earned talent, a spot on the team, doesn't teach them to strive to be better. It teaches them that everything in life should be given to them, because they "deserve it".
I'm am of the philosophy that my kids need to earn their spot on a roster. (And so are they)

So if you believe that HS sports should be ran like a rec league because of latchkey kids, then I'm sorry, but you and I will have to agree to disagree.

 

[CoogansBluff]

Gee, I really upset slugger3...answer is yes, yes and yes. My H is an officer of the boosters and our entire family works very hard to fund raise for our HS team so everyone can play and have good equipment. But some girls are poor, their parents(if theyare involved) are working 2 and 3 jobs already, and they can't help their kids. So we do. My husband coached rec ball for years, some girls dads or moms never came to a single game. These poor kids are already raising themselves.
So I think public school teams should be open to everyone.
Saying that I don't think no cuts is a reasonable policy for every team. But there should be at least 1 team per season that makes no cuts so those latchkey kids have a place to go and something healthy to do. And yes, I think it should be a part of public education paid for by taxpayers. In our school, our softball, track and lacrosse teams have no cuts in spring. In fall it's girls swimming and XC, in winter winter track, boys swimming. That's part of an education and benefits our society.
Anyway after we solve society's problems, we can focus on winning some softball games. For our family, HS is community and travel is competition...

I have no problem with what you're proposing. In softball, we don't have enough training space (no hitting cages yet) and resources (ie, coaches) to make this ideal, so I would prefer that DD's softball teams have cuts and limit the rosters. Which they do. But if there is space (cross country is the best example), then sure, take 'em all. There is plenty of reward and competition in being one of the best runners, or tennis players, or golfers. Only the best make the lineup. So I'm not worried about them developing a sense of entitlement. There is value and education in mere participation. It's all good, IMO.

 

[Cannonball]

I have coached for a very long time at both the HS and MS levels as well as TB. I've been the HC in 4 different sports. Let me tell you that to say that I disagree with everyone makes the team and every plays is an understatement. There are a lot more things that go into it than what is being considered here in this thread. At one point, I attempted to get out of basketball but was then assigned to MS Girl's 7th Grade Basketball. We can be assigned a duty for a couple of years much like we can be assigned to be a class sponsor. So, the new MS AD came up with the idea that I had to keep 14 players and every player had to play in both halfs of the game with "significant minutes". Do you know what happens when you put the 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14 players into a game? This AD pretty much destroyed the HS girl's basketball program. They were beaten so badly every game and no matter what, I couldn't do anything about it. No team we played played more than 7. The athletes didn't go out for 8th grade and HS basketball and they had a few years of no wins at the HS level. What about property values? Our school was a joke once upon a time and everyone not only beat us but beat us badly. The year before I came to this school, the school I was at beat this school 29-0 in baseball and didn't try to rub it in. So, when I got here, we turned things around. Our school district started booming and we had to build a new HS. We win at everything now. In my subdivision, we have 4 new houses and 2 started. Well, I could go on and on.

 

[slugger3]

I have coached for a very long time at both the HS and MS levels as well as TB. I've been the HC in 4 different sports. Let me tell you that to say that I disagree with everyone makes the team and every plays is an understatement. There are a lot more things that go into it than what is being considered here in this thread. At one point, I attempted to get out of basketball but was then assigned to MS Girl's 7th Grade Basketball. We can be assigned a duty for a couple of years much like we can be assigned to be a class sponsor. So, the new MS AD came up with the idea that I had to keep 14 players and every player had to play in both halfs of the game with "significant minutes". Do you know what happens when you put the 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14 players into a game? This AD pretty much destroyed the HS girl's basketball program. They were beaten so badly every game and no matter what, I couldn't do anything about it. No team we played played more than 7. The athletes didn't go out for 8th grade and HS basketball and they had a few years of no wins at the HS level. What about property values? Our school was a joke once upon a time and everyone not only beat us but beat us badly. The year before I came to this school, the school I was at beat this school 29-0 in baseball and didn't try to rub it in. So, when I got here, we turned things around. Our school district started booming and we had to build a new HS. We win at everything now. In my subdivision, we have 4 new houses and 2 started. Well, I could go on and on.

Cannonball, thanks for sharing this!

 

[Rocketech1]

I'm not on any social media sites.

I'm pretty sure DFP is a social media site