Swing experiment

[Bobby Shirer]

I just gave Dustin as a comparison to the Florida hitter.

One of my pet peeves has been when a coach takes a super athletic but small kid and minimizes their movements so they can make good contact. This is the very group that, with the right bigger moves, can generate power without sacrificing ba.

Not a fan of the hinge angle at launch, it is similar to Jeter



and Acuna



It can work obviously but I just see/feel it as a weaker position at launch.

Hinge angle...meaning the bat to rear forearm angle?

 

[_MIA_]

Hinge angle...meaning the bat to rear forearm angle?

More like the angle the bat makes with the ground. Anything more than 90 degrees is a bit much imo. If the rearm forearm is near horizontal at launch it would be similar to saying the rear forearm. I also edited it to mention the angle of the rear forearm at launch, e.g. a little too vertical for my liking. Again both Acuna and Jeter (and this girl to some extent) make it work so...

 

[Bobby Shirer]

More like the angle the bat makes with the ground. Anything more than 90 degrees is a bit much imo. If the rearm forearm is near horizontal at launch it would be similar to saying the rear forearm. I also edited it to mention the angle of the rear forearm at launch, e.g. a little too vertical for my liking. Again both Acuna and Jeter (and this girl to some extent) make it work so...

I agree. It doesn't allow as much room for barrel acceleration. I had mine wrap the bat way behind her head. You'd think it made it hard to hit the inside pitch but instead it kept her tighter and the ball only went farther because of the additional barrel acceleration time/distance. Remember that all swings start at zero mph, the longer swings finish at higher speeds.

 

[_MIA_]

I agree. It doesn't allow as much room for barrel acceleration. I had mine wrap the bat way behind her head. You'd think it made it hard to hit the inside pitch but instead it kept her tighter and the ball only went farther because of the additional barrel acceleration time/distance. Remember that all swings start at zero mph, the longer swings finish at higher speeds.

Yeah I am just going by the way it feels to me and what you see in most elite hitters. That bat angle and a near vertical rear forearm at launch just feels like a weaker position when I try to swing like that.. seems like it is more difficult to use my upper back at all and the elbow tends to outrace the hands too much... Of course that isn't the way I naturally swing so it is going to feel different...

 

[Bobby Shirer]

Im seeing alot of internal rotation from pic 2 to 3. Alot more than most other players/swings. Im not so sure its getting dragged by the pelvic rotation. Bonds stripe on his pants in pic 4 is pointing away from the pitcher. Is there anyone else who gets to this position?

And a lot of rear hip extension from 3 to 4. The front hip is not fully extended in #4. Front hip is extended in 5.

Watch this vid that num nuts posted in the other thread of rory mcilroy

2:03 to 2:08



Rory's rear hip seems to extend right into the extension of his front hip.

Then watch how this players hips are failing to extend(compared to the elite). Her rear femur gets left behind and thusly her rear hip cant extend.(shawn posted this one in another thread) Her front hip is impotent also, compared to the elite, as a result.

After some experimentation, I'm gonna recant a little. I can see where on a shorter stride swing, the rear leg/toe can maintain contact with the ground and in Bonds' case provide rotational force to the pelvis via hip extension. I don't see the internal rotation in frames 2 and 3 because it doesn't appear that the knee turns inward with respect to the pelvis (crease in his goin). What you're calling inward rotation appears to be the body turning the femur in an effort to keep it aligned at 90 degrees to the turning pelvis so that the forward thrust due to extension of the rear hip provides maximum efficiency. The rear knee stays bent to allow the batter to maintain rearward tilt.

I've also played with the idea that the batter being in a squat and extending their hips allows them to pull upward on the handle of a downward moving bat with more force so the barrel changes direction more quickly. It allows more torque by allowing more of a perpendicular (upward) pull on the handle as the barrel gets parallel to the ground.
If the barrel is efficiently accelerated rotationally, then the handle needs to be pulled on perpendicularly at every point in the rotation. To me this means that the points of least leverage will be in forward and downward pulling directions, early in the swing.
Conversely, in the latter parts of the swing, the direction of perpendicular pull would be upward and rearward where the leverage would be greatest.

 

[Bonesaw]

The stripe on Bonds rear leg? The stripe facing us? Or the other one?

Bonds' rear hip is extended meaning his knee gets behind his hip socket, saggitally. After his heel lifts the leg isn't pushing against anything so wouldn't that mean it's being left behind? Same as the softball girl, the rear hip is fully extended but it's just being left behind until the slack is taken out and then it's being dragged.
I'm thinking that leaving the mass of the rear leg behind allows a faster rotation until the hip fully extends and then gets dragged and limits rotation.

Yes the stripe on his rear leg that we can see. His is this way \. Pedroia and florida player are like this /.

I think his rear foot is doing the job of keeping the knee relatively in place so his pelvis ends up moving and not his knee.

I think the closer the femurs are to being paralell when hips begin to extend, the more efficiently they work(the hips). The more parallel the more the hips are working together.

What I mean by left behind is the Florida players femurs are more like this /\ at extension while Bonds , and many other elite hitters are more like this \\.

Pedroia and the Florida player do look very similar(and good). They both have done just fine obviously. Im just not sure its the absolute best though. They both still have some flexion in their front hip(they dont achieve full extension). Josh donaldson looks this way also.

My original point about TM's focus on the rear leg moving the way he says is that it can get alot of young(or old too I guess) players who are way too much like /\ to get more like \\.

 

[Bonesaw]

After some experimentation, I'm gonna recant a little. I can see where on a shorter stride swing, the rear leg/toe can maintain contact with the ground and in Bonds' case provide rotational force to the pelvis via hip extension. I don't see the internal rotation in frames 2 and 3 because it doesn't appear that the knee turns inward with respect to the pelvis (crease in his goin). What you're calling inward rotation appears to be the body turning the femur in an effort to keep it aligned at 90 degrees to the turning pelvis so that the forward thrust due to extension of the rear hip provides maximum efficiency. The rear knee stays bent to allow the batter to maintain rearward tilt.

I've also played with the idea that the batter being in a squat and extending their hips allows them to pull upward on the handle of a downward moving bat with more force so the barrel changes direction more quickly. It allows more torque by allowing more of a perpendicular (upward) pull on the handle as the barrel gets parallel to the ground.
If the barrel is efficiently accelerated rotationally, then the handle needs to be pulled on perpendicularly at every point in the rotation. To me this means that the points of least leverage will be in forward and downward pulling directions, early in the swing.
Conversely, in the latter parts of the swing, the direction of perpendicular pull would be upward and rearward where the leverage would be greatest.

Yes I believe you may be correct about the internal rotation of the rear leg.

And the explanation at the end is great.

Heres another pretty cool rotation into extension movement which that explanation also seems to fit.

 

[Bonesaw]

Have you tried any TM method
(His rear leg method)with your DD? I feel like part of the reason his method is appealing to me to use with my DD is because it's a way to accomplish some good things without coaching the aggression and explosiveness out of the swing.

Shawn: in your first swings I think your rear hip has hip flexors working once the rear foot comes off the ground. So your rear hip does not extend as well as it could. I threw my back out trying some of this stuff about 10 days ago so be careful if you attempt it!

 

[_MIA_]

Have you tried any TM method
(His rear leg method)with your DD? I feel like part of the reason his method is appealing to me to use with my DD is because it's a way to accomplish some good things without coaching the aggression and explosiveness out of the swing.

Not really. Only thing I have done at one point was SNF drills but for the most part I have just focused on the two things which were glaring flaws with her, early leveling (before launch) of the barrel and her move out. Both of those flaws put her in a bad position to launch from and hence anything after that is going to be compromised.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

Yes the stripe on his rear leg that we can see. His is this way \. Pedroia and florida player are like this /.

I think his rear foot is doing the job of keeping the knee relatively in place so his pelvis ends up moving and not his knee.

I think the closer the femurs are to being paralell when hips begin to extend, the more efficiently they work(the hips). The more parallel the more the hips are working together.

What I mean by left behind is the Florida players femurs are more like this /\ at extension while Bonds , and many other elite hitters are more like this \\.

Pedroia and the Florida player do look very similar(and good). They both have done just fine obviously. Im just not sure its the absolute best though. They both still have some flexion in their front hip(they dont achieve full extension). Josh donaldson looks this way also.

My original point about TM's focus on the rear leg moving the way he says is that it can get alot of young(or old too I guess) players who are way too much like /\ to get more like \\.

Bonds has a pretty good rearward spine tilt compared to Florida girl and Pedroia. Probably adds to his feeling of swinging down compared to his spine.