Stay to Play

[riseball]

That's a good point, and I think could provide for some great discussion on another thread. I know that's a point on contention on our team. Why drive out of state every weekend and pay for hotels (with Stay to Pay premiums) when you could sleep in your own bed and play local tournaments.

It all depends on your location. We are lucky to be in Central Florida, but have not been to Diamond 9, Rising Stars, or Legacy in years, and would never consider Colorado or California. Most of our players want to stay within about an 8 hour drive from home. So there is very little that I cannot do at JAX Storm, Backwards K, Gold Diamond, etc. at much less cost. Not to mention that 90% of my kids get the real traction at camps. Showcases are just opportunities for confirmation. My niece (1 year JUCO player) went to The Sparkler this year and was amazed at the number of coaches. But admitted they were mostly schools she had never heard of before and were probably a plane flight from home. It does no good to get seen by schools when you do not have the skills and/or the inclination. Unfortunately for some the big STP's are the only opportunity available. FWIW - I cannot understand how any pitcher in their right mind would want to play in a showcase in Colorado.

 

[Softball scholar]

It all depends on your location. We are lucky to be in Central Florida, but have not been to Diamond 9, Rising Stars, or Legacy in years, and would never consider Colorado or California. Most of our players want to stay within about an 8 hour drive from home. So there is very little that I cannot do at JAX Storm, Backwards K, Gold Diamond, etc. at much less cost. Not to mention that 90% of my kids get the real traction at camps. Showcases are just opportunities for confirmation. My niece (1 year JUCO player) went to The Sparkler this year and was amazed at the number of coaches. But admitted they were mostly schools she had never heard of before and were probably a plane flight from home. It does no good to get seen by schools when you do not have the skills and/or the inclination. Unfortunately for some the big STP's are the only opportunity available. FWIW - I cannot understand how any pitcher in their right mind would want to play in a showcase in Colorado.

I agree. The camps the are best way to get on the radar. Also it all about location. We made a trip last week about 8 hours away to a showcase. A few colleges were there but not many, but they were more also interested in the regional teams. We had a large showcase back in our state with colleges that our kids were interested in. Kind of defeats the purpose. I think its a lot easier for smaller colleges schools to recruit regionally. Prospects can attend their camps easier and make visits easier. Also, If a kid travels half way across the country to play softball at a college, they might get the old home sickness and not stick it out. Coaches are aware of that and its riskier getting a kid further away. The large schools or major conferences have the ability to recruit further. Lets let be real how many openings do UCLA, Michigan and Alabama have.

 

[YOCOACH]

I disagree. From my experience, most coaches choose what tournament they want to go to. I wish our coach would get a little feedback from the parents on what tournaments we play in. We had no say in where were going. The other coaches we've played for have always decided the schedule Most coaches are only worried about the tournament entry fee, and could care less about "Stay to Pay" fees and gate fees. They have a limited team budget and the only cost comes out of the front end in entry fees. That's why backend fees like STP and gate fees are popular moneymaking techniques for big tournaments, the people paying them have very little input in deciding who goes to that tournament.


Here's an example of how these methods make more money for tournaments.


Tournament A: No gate fee or stay to pay

Costs per Team with 12 players:

Entry fee per team $900
Gate Fee = $0
STP = $0

Cost per team = $900
Cost per player =$75



Tournament B: Gate fee and stay to pay with lower entry fee as a result getting more coaches to sign up for the tournament.


Enrty Fee per team = $700
Gate fee: $20 per person or $40 for both parents: $40 *12 = $480
STP fee: $30 per night x 3 nights * 12 rooms $1,080

Total cost per team: $2,260
Cost per player $188.33


Lets be real. The big tournament organizations are finding ways to maximize their profits by using stay to play. Its a hidden cost and they're using a kickback method to get us parents to dish out more cash. When you look at the real cash outlay, you can see how they're jacking us. I think naïve coaches see this example and think, that tournament is $200 cheaper. Lets go there when it really is costing their parents $100 each for the tournament. I guess it's good business. But you would think the mission on these tournaments is to provide an opportunity for young kids to play a team sport and develop skills to continue on at the next level. But it looks like more and more is a way to gouge zealous softball parents and to put more cash into the Orgs pockets.

Are the big organizations like Triple Crown and PGF not for profits or are they business going concerns?

This was one of my points although maybe it was muddled with imprecise wording. There are other concerns here as well and quite honestly, I don't see the end in site. Your example A is hypothetically incorrect since they would still be charging a prepaid team gate fee of $200 (another new fad for a money grab) for the weekend. So now your tournament fee is $1100 which makes example B a $400 dollar cheaper tournament and even then, parents would still be saving money going to the example A tournament.

But there's other considerations to think of as well. You have two organizations of equal talent and going to similar quality tournaments. Org A does nothing but go to the $1100 non stay to play tournaments and Org B does nothing but the STP's of example B. Based on a 12 man roster, playing 10 tournaments, Organizations A team fees would be almost $400 a player more. In my economically depressed area, the "A" organizations charge, on average, $750 per player. Most of these teams from the various organizations could be interchanged as far as skill level, types of tournaments attended and coaching is concerned. If one of them decided to raise their team fees by $400 per player, they'd end up folding since the only organizations that charge that kind of team fee are those that are considered "Elite, Gold or Premiere." Even a $200 dollar increase would probably be a slow kind of death for them no matter how much money the parents would save in the long run. The only thing they'd be looking at is the initial outlay of money between two comparable teams, comprised of comparable talent playing comparable tournaments.

 

[Softball scholar]

This was one of my points although maybe it was muddled with imprecise wording. There are other concerns here as well and quite honestly, I don't see the end in site. Your example A is hypothetically incorrect since they would still be charging a prepaid team gate fee of $200 (another new fad for a money grab) for the weekend. So now your tournament fee is $1100 which makes example B a $400 dollar cheaper tournament and even then, parents would still be saving money going to the example A tournament.

But there's other considerations to think of as well. You have two organizations of equal talent and going to similar quality tournaments. Org A does nothing but go to the $1100 non stay to play tournaments and Org B does nothing but the STP's of example B. Based on a 12 man roster, playing 10 tournaments, Organizations A team fees would be almost $400 a player more. In my economically depressed area, the "A" organizations charge, on average, $750 per player. Most of these teams from the various organizations could be interchanged as far as skill level, types of tournaments attended and coaching is concerned. If one of them decided to raise their team fees by $400 per player, they'd end up folding since the only organizations that charge that kind of team fee are those that are considered "Elite, Gold or Premiere." Even a $200 dollar increase would probably be a slow kind of death for them no matter how much money the parents would save in the long run. The only thing they'd be looking at is the initial outlay of money between two comparable teams, comprised of comparable talent playing comparable tournaments.

I think we agree. So the tricky thing in choosing a travel ball team is you need to consider more than just the original outlay which is the main think parents think about. The variation of travel costs can impose significantly more money on the family budget, and staying within the thread, "Stay to Pay" fees compound the problem even more. Also add in the creative hidden costs like prepaid gate fees, jacked up concession prices when parks have "no cooler policies", etc etc. The problem is that most teams don't post their schedule up front, so you don't know what your committing too.

Also to paraphrase your quote, that parents in economically depressed areas face difficult decisions to play travel softball. Its becoming more and more expensive. What I think were seeing in travel softball is a movement from a more blue collar sport to a white collar sport. Its becoming more cost prohibitive to enter and I would economically compare the cost to participate to sports like Golf, Tennis and Swimming (country club sports). There's a lot of talented girls that cant participate do to the cost.

 

[marriard]

Also to paraphrase your quote, that parents in economically depressed areas face difficult decisions to play travel softball. Its becoming more and more expensive. What I think were seeing in travel softball is a movement from a more blue collar sport to a white collar sport. Its becoming more cost prohibitive to enter and I would economically compare the cost to participate to sports like Golf, Tennis and Swimming (country club sports). There's a lot of talented girls that cant participate do to the cost.

Look, in the end, as long as people are paying and attending, this isn't going to change until there is a tipping point and someone is annoyed enough to compel them to do something about it.

It is basically why PGF really exists. A group of people were done with aspects of ASA, so put the effort in to do something about it.

Another example - Our local org was done with how the big Fall Travel League everyone was playing in was running it and treating tems - and so were a bunch of other orgs (but not enough for them to do something about it themselves). This was a fall league played every Sunday on 12-15 fields over 3 parks that has existed for 20+ years - 120+ teams every weekend. In took us only 3 years for us to decimate this league. We now run the big Fall Travel League and the old League gets our leftovers and teams we don't want to be involved and they can't even fill their 4 field local park or field some age groups. We can't find enough fields for all the teams that want to play. All because we had the people who were willing to put the time, energy and commitment into making a change.

They charge because they can and because people are willing to pay for it. They wont change until people stop turning up or someone is committed enough that they do something about it.

 

[maksoftball]

Yeah I am fed up with the Stay To Play. Even though we got a nice brand new hotel for $200/night (plus $12/night parking) and it was almost equidistant to all parks, I am pretty sure we could have gotten a lower rate or better rate somewhere else and would have been just as satisfied. It is getting out of hand, and I probably won't follow the team next summer (DD's last summer of travel ball).

 

[sbmom19]

Find out what the required number of room-nights are for your team at the STP rate and then once your team has reached the total, take some nights at the lower online rate.

I used to believe exactly as you do - that the tournament organizers are just taking a straight cash kickback from the hotels - but what you'll find is the extra cost helps the TDs to bring in (better) umpires from other areas. The hotels give back a certain number of room-nights in order to house the umpires. So, it costs parents more and saves the TDs some money, but there is a benefit to the players. Generally speaking, big national softball events need more umpires than the local areas can support.

So let the other parents bear the burden while you get a break? What if they all do that? Last year a bunch of parents did that, there weren't enough rooms booked and the team ended up getting a $500 fine. Now our coach requires everyone stay in the block.

 

[nikkilugi]

Stay to play is not only in softball - it is in use in all major traveling events/sports including football, volleyball, basketball, dance/cheer, etc. I don't see it going away unfortunately. I do believe that every team should do research though and complain, loudly if needed, to the tournament directors about the cost difference between the stay to play cost vs. a regular booking rate. It might not change things or maybe tournament directors will find more reputable companies to arrange their rooms.

 

[Rocketech1]

FWIW - I cannot understand how any pitcher in their right mind would want to play in a showcase in Colorado.

I understand your point but I can think of several reasons off the top of my head:

1) Top pitchers should want to play against the best competition possible. Almost all of the top teams in the US were in Colorado last week; the same can't be said of any other tournament in Florida (not even Diamond 9).

2) Opportunity to spend the week with family and friends and interact with players from all over the country;

3) To get away from the stifling summer humidity that exists in almost every state in the summer.

My opinion is every travel ball team should play in some sort of end of the season, high profile national tournament and/or championship. It's something to build up to and goes beyond just the normal showcase and local, regional tournaments. It is called "travel ball" for a reason.

 

[Momo'sDad]

So let the other parents bear the burden while you get a break? What if they all do that? Last year a bunch of parents did that, there weren't enough rooms booked and the team ended up getting a $500 fine. Now our coach requires everyone stay in the block.

Hardly - in my world, we should all pay our fair share. If a team has 12 families all booking 5 nights, that's 60 total. In the case of the Triple Crown WS in Reno, only 40 nights are required, so the parents can organize - which is what you say your team did - and each take a discounted 5th night, with a few nights left over. Some may not wish to hassle with making the separate, discounted reservation, so in the end, it might work out to where your team meets its obligation with everyone who wants it getting a little relief from the mandated lodging fee.