Softball in JAPAN informative read

[RADcatcher]

From the details, I was able to come up with the Cor (Coefficient of Restitution) value for the Japan Softball Association is .40 to .44 compared to .47 for the National Fastpitch Collegiate Association. From my minimal research based on these Cor values, this would result in a 6% to 14% reduction in distance.

Great example that if people think the home run fence is too close here in the states, and an adjustment needs to be on the field, they don't actually have to move the fences back, they can just alter the ball again. Less expensive adjustment. Which can be made on the next purchase of softballs.

Aka~ the difference between the old white ball and the yellow rocketball that changed the game.
Can reflect on the percentage of advantage given or taken away from batters by doing an adjustment in the Flight of the ball.

 

[Hillhouse]

Great example that if people think the home run fence is too close here in the states, and an adjustment needs to be on the field, they don't actually have to move the fences back, they can just alter the ball again. Less expensive adjustment. Which can be made on the next purchase of softballs.

Aka~ the difference between the old white ball and the yellow rocketball that changed the game.
Can reflect on the percentage of advantage given or taken away from batters by doing an adjustment in the Flight of the ball.

RAD might be referencing the old Dudley Thunder ball, oooooh, I have nightmares of those. Those were essentially a golf ball, made into softball size.

Mizuno is the official ball of the WBSC. I'm 99.99999% sure that's what's used in Japan. I actually really liked that ball too, I found it to be a fair ball. Not too hard but if it was hit, it will fly. However, check swings aren't HR's like with some other balls. Maybe it's changed now but last I knew, you could not buy the Mizuno ball here in the USA. Team USA (men and women) would order 100's of dozens for training camps, etc. and have them shipped to Canada where someone would go get them. I could never understand why that ball wasn't sold in the USA. And, I can tell you from having been to Asia for softball more than a few times, they HATE Mizuno. Mizuno concentrates their business on Golf, which in Asia is HUGE money. But most of the Asian teams: Japan, Taiwan, Philippines, etc. all have a "sponsorship" of somekind from Mizuno and they wish they could use other brands, especially in bats.

But when it comes to softballs, there's 2 different things: the Cor and the compression. Both of those things matter, a lot. 20 or so years ago, Worth came out with the Kmaster ball that had 120 seams instead of 88. At the time, there was no yellow balls, it was all white. However, the color of the ball doesn't matter it's what's inside that counts. Anyway, Worth was making the Kmaster with a polycore center instead of cork. These are the balls that never go out of shape or soften. They stay like rocks. I cannot recall was the compression of the ball was, .47 maybe? I don't know but it was the core that mattered. Worth (still is) the official ball for the ISC which is the top men's FP organization. When the season began the first year of the Kmaster, I can recall about 8 bats breaking. Nobody could understand why. It wasn't like only one brand or style of bat was breaking. They were all breaking or cracking.

So, the head of the ISC got in touch with Worth and they conducted some testing in Van Nuys Calif. using a couple men's fp players hitting. Again, the bats were breaking.

It got determined that when Worth made the ball, they did not account for male fastpitch. All of their product testing was done using some of the women's National team players but they didn't use any guys. The difference of power and speed in the swings, combined with the polycore center ball was simply too much. And that's why bats were breaking all over the place. As a result, we had to use another ball made by Worth called the Dream Seam (which is one that I actually like a lot!!). But that ball had a cork center, which made it much safer to play with.

In the end, this became the same situation as bats. There is no longer a big enough demographic of men's FP players for any company to make anything specifically for male fastpitch. In fact, 2023 was the first time the ISC used the yellow ball. 3 years before the ISC's contract expired with Worth, they told the ISC they would not be making the white ball anymore. They had been making them (per the contract) but gave notice that when it's over... it's over. I doubt most girls today would've ever seen a white softball!!! Eventually there was a compromise, Worth took the insides of the Dream Seam ball and put them into the cover the the Kmaster ball. So now the Kmaster is cork centered but still has the 120 seams! I can't speak for RAD but, I can remember the first time I saw/used a yellow ball and through to myself "This won't last, nobody will buy these". I guess I was wrong, again.

 

[Gambler Bob]

RAD might be referencing the old Dudley Thunder ball, oooooh, I have nightmares of those. Those were essentially a golf ball, made into softball size.

Mizuno is the official ball of the WBSC. I'm 99.99999% sure that's what's used in Japan. I actually really liked that ball too, I found it to be a fair ball. Not too hard but if it was hit, it will fly. However, check swings aren't HR's like with some other balls. Maybe it's changed now but last I knew, you could not buy the Mizuno ball here in the USA. Team USA (men and women) would order 100's of dozens for training camps, etc. and have them shipped to Canada where someone would go get them. I could never understand why that ball wasn't sold in the USA. And, I can tell you from having been to Asia for softball more than a few times, they HATE Mizuno. Mizuno concentrates their business on Golf, which in Asia is HUGE money. But most of the Asian teams: Japan, Taiwan, Philippines, etc. all have a "sponsorship" of somekind from Mizuno and they wish they could use other brands, especially in bats.

But when it comes to softballs, there's 2 different things: the Cor and the compression. Both of those things matter, a lot. 20 or so years ago, Worth came out with the Kmaster ball that had 120 seams instead of 88. At the time, there was no yellow balls, it was all white. However, the color of the ball doesn't matter it's what's inside that counts. Anyway, Worth was making the Kmaster with a polycore center instead of cork. These are the balls that never go out of shape or soften. They stay like rocks. I cannot recall was the compression of the ball was, .47 maybe? I don't know but it was the core that mattered. Worth (still is) the official ball for the ISC which is the top men's FP organization. When the season began the first year of the Kmaster, I can recall about 8 bats breaking. Nobody could understand why. It wasn't like only one brand or style of bat was breaking. They were all breaking or cracking.

So, the head of the ISC got in touch with Worth and they conducted some testing in Van Nuys Calif. using a couple men's fp players hitting. Again, the bats were breaking.

It got determined that when Worth made the ball, they did not account for male fastpitch. All of their product testing was done using some of the women's National team players but they didn't use any guys. The difference of power and speed in the swings, combined with the polycore center ball was simply too much. And that's why bats were breaking all over the place. As a result, we had to use another ball made by Worth called the Dream Seam (which is one that I actually like a lot!!). But that ball had a cork center, which made it much safer to play with.

In the end, this became the same situation as bats. There is no longer a big enough demographic of men's FP players for any company to make anything specifically for male fastpitch. In fact, 2023 was the first time the ISC used the yellow ball. 3 years before the ISC's contract expired with Worth, they told the ISC they would not be making the white ball anymore. They had been making them (per the contract) but gave notice that when it's over... it's over. I doubt most girls today would've ever seen a white softball!!! Eventually there was a compromise, Worth took the insides of the Dream Seam ball and put them into the cover the the Kmaster ball. So now the Kmaster is cork centered but still has the 120 seams! I can't speak for RAD but, I can remember the first time I saw/used a yellow ball and through to myself "This won't last, nobody will buy these". I guess I was wrong, again.

Can you give some detail on the difference between a ball with a 120 seams instead of 88? Does the ball with more seams have more break when spinning correctly, or less? Do the amount of seams really matter, or is it the height of the seams that really make a ball break more?

There are some videos of men throwing curveballs that have a tremendous amount of break in comparison to women's fastpitch. Now I am curious if these men were using a different ball.

 

[Hillhouse]

Can you give some detail on the difference between a ball with a 120 seams instead of 88? Does the ball with more seams have more break when spinning correctly, or less? Do the amount of seams really matter, or is it the height of the seams that really make a ball break more?

There are some videos of men throwing curveballs that have a tremendous amount of break in comparison to women's fastpitch. Now I am curious if these men were using a different ball.

If the videos you mentioned are in the last 20 years, I can almost guarantee you it was the Worth Kmaster ball. About 5 years ago Worth made that in yellow, and then as I said, when the contract expired they stopped making white balls altogether. I'd be curious which videos you saw of the guys throwing a curve. It's not a pitch used very often in men's fastpitch. Success with it is usually due to how infrequently it's thrown.

Personally, I didn't notice a difference in the ball, 120 vs. 88 seams. They went equally as far over the fence when crushed by a flat pitch! I would say this though, with the old style balls, there was a great variation in seam height. As one who LOVES high seams, that made a difference. The Kmaster and 120 seams were pretty consistent. You didn't have a lot of differences between the balls. I think the original thought was that adding more seams would benefit pitchers, and it's a nice thought. Hitters have been getting all the goodies for the last 40 years with the evolution of bats, aluminum bats and now composite bats. It was nice of them to try giving the pitcher something. But they weren't raised seams so, I didn't notice it as much.

The last time I actually pitched with a Mizuno ball was in 2000, at the World tournament in South Africa. Again, I liked the ball. I think it's fair, not too hard, not too high seams... basically the Goldilocks of softballs. One of my students had a USA Jr. women's team tryout 2 years ago or so, and I "borrowed' a Mizuno ball from the Olympic team when I was working with them earlier that year. I should've grabbed a couple of them. Anyway, I had hoped it'd give her some help to work with that brand and style of ball prior to her tryout. Sadly it didn't help, she was named an alternate. I don't say that story to "name drop" but to reinforce that you couldn't buy Mizuno balls in the USA for some reason. Maybe that's changed now, it's been a couple of years.

 

[RADcatcher]

Can you give some detail on the difference between a ball with a 120 seams instead of 88? Does the ball with more seams have more break when spinning correctly, or less? Do the amount of seams really matter, or is it the height of the seams that really make a ball break more?

There are some videos of men throwing curveballs that have a tremendous amount of break in comparison to women's fastpitch. Now I am curious if these men were using a different ball.

Simple response is
Air flow matters!
Which includes texture and seams.


In my experience playing softball with the old dudley softballs (those white ball had texture could feel). They did have a different texture from when replaced with the yellow rocketball. (Yellow smoother)
* texture difference was definitely noticeable and talked about by players when we transitioned with the game.

* the white balls could wear out during a game and could become lopsided and even mushy.

The BALL being changed definitely changed the game!

 

[RADcatcher]

Here are other feedback to the discussion point of texture of the ball. Also relative is texture being put on the ball.

ADD definitely the white ball could rough them up. However the yellow rocket balls not so much.

Effect of grip-enhancing agents on sliding friction between a fingertip and a baseball - Communications Materials

Foreign substances on the surface of a baseball can alter its delivery and enhance pitching performance. Here, sticky substances are found to increase finger-ball friction which can positively affect spin rate, whereas rosin powder can ensure consistent friction across pitchers, with results...

www.nature.com

The Aerodynamics of a Soccer Ball

(Inside Science) -- Cristiane Rozeira's left foot collided with the ball as soon as the whistle blew. The ball soared over the barrier, curved gracefully to the right, hit the post and crossed the goal line. It was Rozeira's third consecutive score of the game, and with it she secured the...

www.insidescience.org

 

[Hillhouse]

Here are other feedback to the discussion point of texture of the ball. Also relative is texture being put on the ball.

ADD definitely the white ball could rough them up. However the yellow rocket balls not so much.

Effect of grip-enhancing agents on sliding friction between a fingertip and a baseball - Communications Materials

Foreign substances on the surface of a baseball can alter its delivery and enhance pitching performance. Here, sticky substances are found to increase finger-ball friction which can positively affect spin rate, whereas rosin powder can ensure consistent friction across pitchers, with results...

www.nature.com

The Aerodynamics of a Soccer Ball

(Inside Science) -- Cristiane Rozeira's left foot collided with the ball as soon as the whistle blew. The ball soared over the barrier, curved gracefully to the right, hit the post and crossed the goal line. It was Rozeira's third consecutive score of the game, and with it she secured the...

www.insidescience.org

View attachment 29170

RAD, you are the first person I've ever heard say the ball moved more at 40' than 43'. I'm not disagreeing or arguing, just saying you're the first I heard say it. I find that quite interesting. I think you're right too about the texture of the ball being different. The old balls had a more leather feel to them, today's balls is purely synthetic. I too preferred the balls of long ago. RAD, were you still playing when they made the change to 43'?? I know the National HS federation didn't do it until about 2010 or so. But I think NCAA changed in 1988 from 40' to 43'.

Also, your point about air flow and texture can be true to anyone who's ever watched cricket. In the games that last 5 days, the players wear all white uniforms. On the "one day" events, they wear the colorful uniforms. Anyway, you can see it clearly on the white uniforms that the bowler (cricket lingo for pitcher) can be seen rubbing the ball on his pants so often and so forcefully the red of the ball stains the pants. But, they only rub one side!!!! They leave the other side to be scuffed up. One side smooth and one side rough leads to more movement with the ball when it's bowled (pitched).

 

[curveballer124]

I liked the K-masters I only played with them a hand full of times. I did however play with the NAFA softballs a lot which were very similar in stitching but they always felt so damn heavy. My all time favorite ball was the Debeer 212. It would usually lose its shape after a game or two but I could make that thing dance like a wiffle ball!! Never played with a Mizuno ball, hell I don't think I've ever seen one to be honest.

As for ball flight I agree with RAD use a low flight ball instead of moving fences back. It will put an end to the check swing homeruns for sure! I mean the fact that girls are throwing as hard as they are now with a 400 compression ball is insane. My daughter pitched in college without a mask. It scared the shirt out of me because I knew just how hard that ball she was pitching with is and how quickly things could go wrong.....

Gambler Bob, I can't speak for all male pitchers but the ball I can break the most is the Dudley CFP and the Debeers ball used at the Indian tourneys. I do throw a curve ball but its usually an offspeed/change-up

 

[Gambler Bob]

If the videos you mentioned are in the last 20 years, I can almost guarantee you it was the Worth Kmaster ball. About 5 years ago Worth made that in yellow, and then as I said, when the contract expired they stopped making white balls altogether. I'd be curious which videos you saw of the guys throwing a curve. It's not a pitch used very often in men's fastpitch. Success with it is usually due to how infrequently it's thrown.

Personally, I didn't notice a difference in the ball, 120 vs. 88 seams. They went equally as far over the fence when crushed by a flat pitch! I would say this though, with the old style balls, there was a great variation in seam height. As one who LOVES high seams, that made a difference. The Kmaster and 120 seams were pretty consistent. You didn't have a lot of differences between the balls. I think the original thought was that adding more seams would benefit pitchers, and it's a nice thought. Hitters have been getting all the goodies for the last 40 years with the evolution of bats, aluminum bats and now composite bats. It was nice of them to try giving the pitcher something. But they weren't raised seams so, I didn't notice it as much.

The last time I actually pitched with a Mizuno ball was in 2000, at the World tournament in South Africa. Again, I liked the ball. I think it's fair, not too hard, not too high seams... basically the Goldilocks of softballs. One of my students had a USA Jr. women's team tryout 2 years ago or so, and I "borrowed' a Mizuno ball from the Olympic team when I was working with them earlier that year. I should've grabbed a couple of them. Anyway, I had hoped it'd give her some help to work with that brand and style of ball prior to her tryout. Sadly it didn't help, she was named an alternate. I don't say that story to "name drop" but to reinforce that you couldn't buy Mizuno balls in the USA for some reason. Maybe that's changed now, it's been a couple of years.

Unfortunately I could not find the exact video I was thinking of. All I remember is the guy could throw this curveball with both his right and left hand, and the ball had a tremendous amount of curve to it. He was an older gentleman, it was not in a game setting. The video was more like he was giving a pitching lesson to a female type setting. Really looked effortless in the video.

 

[RADcatcher]

being different. The old balls had a more leather feel to them, today's balls is purely synthetic. I too preferred the balls of long ago.

Definitely remember pitchers talking about the texture and feel of the ball changing. I noticed it immediately.

RAD, were you still playing when they made the change to 43'?? I know the National HS federation didn't do it until about 2010 or so. But I think NCAA changed in 1988 from 40' to 43'.

After playing and coaching at Long Beach State I went on to play and coach Women's Open division. Plus the Decades of working with players and teams Beyond that.

Also, your point about air flow and texture can be true to anyone who's ever watched cricket. In the games that last 5 days, the players wear all white uniforms. On the "one day" events, they wear the colorful uniforms. Anyway, you can see it clearly on the white uniforms that the bowler (cricket lingo for pitcher) can be seen rubbing the ball on his pants so often and so forcefully the red of the ball stains the pants. But, they only rub one side!!!! They leave the other side to be scuffed up. One side smooth and one side rough leads to more movement with the ball when it's bowled (pitched).

These type of things that you are describing are what I call the technical in the technique. These are parts of the game that not everybody gets into understanding why things work the way they do. Nice to have discussions that bring out technical aspects of the game!

As to the conversation of
what was and what is...
they're simply isn't very many people
( sharing on hand experience)
that have been involved in the sport for long enough to see/watch
how the sport has evolved and what the changes have done.
Both pros and cons to what the sport is today.