Should travel ball pitchers be allowed to play Rec All-Stars?

[SoCalSoftballdad]

I appologize. I though the topic of this thread was "Should TB Pitchers Be Allowed to Play in Recreational ALL STARS..........

It seems to have morphed into "Should an ENTIRE "A" LEVEL TRAVEL BALL TEAM be allowed to ENTER and COMPLETE in a Recreational League AS A TEAM.......Dumb question as far as I'm concerned........

Regardless...........In my neck of the woods, there are 2 distinct CLASSIFICATIONS of TB teams.........

There is "A"...........And there is "B"...........

Pre-High School "A" ball would metaphorically be ALL STAR players who are gathered from SEVERAL rec ball leagues within a regional area, with boundries designating sections..........

Pre-High School "B" ball would be ALL STAR players gathered from ONE SINGLE LEAGUE..........But they are STILL travel ball players...........

The point being that 99.99% of ALL high level players (TB "A", "B" or otherwise) start out as REC BALL ALL STARS...........Because there are recognized for their talent.........

And now you (metaphorically) want to ban this girls level of talent from playing in the "competitive" level of rec ball?.............Because of her dedication to her skill?............

It would seem to me that before you can "go that far" with selective exclusion, you'd better start a league that has special rules regarding "just how good a player can get" before she is banned from the league in general..........

At 9 years old........My daughter was deemed by many "rec ball parents" as "to good for this level" and shouldn't be allowed to pitch..........She hadn't even started her TB career yet............

So this hits close to home for me........And I disagree with ANYONE who says that because a player is VERY GOOD.......REGARDLESS of the reason.........She should be banned from participation........

My 2 cents..........

Allow me to explain....

The ASA (SoCal) rules have the following 2010 classifications for tournament play:

"A" Classification (Travel): "This level of competition is highly competitive with most players having consistent ability and pitchers being capable of controlling a game. Qualifying team at this level advance to USA / ASA "A" National Championships or to Westen Territory ASA "A" National Championships in their age classification"

"B" Classificaiton (League All-Stars): "This level of play is for recreation leagues only (emphasis added). Either league teams or league all-star teams are eligible to participate in these championships.......Teams are eligible for District Championships and can advance to SoCal ASA State "B" Championships (League All-Star Championships) and Western Territory "B" ASA Nationals Championships in their Age Classifications."

"C" Classicfication / League All-Stars: "This classification is for recreation leagues only, and is specifically for leagues that are not highly competitive.........."

The classification that interests me and the one our rec league is in is "B" above.

It is clear to me that ASA realizes the distinction between the level of play of "A" (Travel) and "B" (Rec League All-Stars). In fact all "one-off" "B" level tournaments in my area leading up to Districts specifically exclude "Travel teams" from competing in their tournaments for the sole reason that they would so dominate the rec teams and the games would be so one-sided that the tournament would have a hard time getting any rec teams to participate in future tournaments.

So here's the issue. The ASA rules allow the following for "B" tournaments.

- A team shall not have any player who participated on a "travel type team" after March 31.
- A team shall not have more than 4 players who participated on a travel team any time after February 1.
- A team that participates in the ASA "A" or 18U Gold qualifying event is not eligible for "B" classification play.
- A player has to play at least 50% of the current season's (spring) lrec eague to be eligible.

Under these rules, a travel ball player can play TB year-round as long as they join the rec league by March 31 and participate in at least 50% of the games, they will be eligible to play in the All-Star "B" tournaments. In the most extreme situation, you could have a Rec "B" All-Star team consisting entirely of 12 travel ball players as long as they stopped playing travel on Feb 1.

I have nothing against travel ball players, I think its great that they are taking their game to a higher level. I just think that the tournaments should have teams that are somewhat equally matched for their particular level of play, whether its "A", "B", or "C" classification.

 

[SoftSocDad]

I know we could all identify extreme examples to use in building an anecdotal case, but when you look at the rulebook, the playing field is level, but it's up to the rec coaches/leagues to take advantage of the rule as written. If some league officials stand against it, that's their choice, but then there's no point in complaining when a player who practices more than yours outperforms yours during the game.

I recently attended a tourney which had one of the poorest all-star teams you may ever see. They're classified as 'B', but truthfully, this team could compete with very few 'C' teams you've ever seen. Their #1 10-year-old pitcher - because she's the only one who could get the ball across the plate - was topping out at speeds lower than the slowest slow-pitch machine at the cages...probably 30-32mph, if I had to guess.

This rec all-star team had absolutely no chance whatsoever to be competitive in a B-level tournament here in NorCal, but the point is that no matter where you go in softball, someone has to be the worst team.

By the same token, there were some 1st-year 10u TB teams who weren't all that strong either. They tended to have more and better pitchers than the rec all-stars they were facing, but the fielding and batting for many of those teams wasn't as sound as some of the rec teams. There were still rec teams standing pretty deep in the tournament.

Obviously, the differences between rec and TB become more pronounced as the girls get older, but at 10u and 12u, it's not hurting the game to send a #1 TB pitcher into the circle, even if you view it as essentially being nothing more than a 'live practice' for her.

 

[fastpitch]

socalsoftballdad - sounds like they made the rules the best they can to give all girls an opportunity to play if they so choose; which I guess may put a team at a disadvantage or advantage depending on how the rules are used. there is always a team that will lose more than it wins.

My guess is that most of the higher level players would choose not to play at the B level at all anyway. But when you are talking 8u/10u/12u its still too early for them to really even have their game developed for all positions. In TB where most players are good, some players just don't get a chance to play positions they might play at the B classification. Some even ride the bench most of the time. Does it mean they shouldn't be allowed to develop lets say their SS skills at a competitive B level when they are in left field in travel ball? Or even pitch? I know a 10yo that currently plays TB at a 12u level. She plays outfield and never pitches for her TB team. She would get crushed pitching in TB; but she would be the main pitcher for her 10yo (and maybe 12yo) town all star team. By what you want she couldn't pitch at the all star level because she's a TB player; although she doesn't even pitch at the 12u TB level. While she is a skilled player she might never develop her game in other positions if it wasn't for the rec all star level of play.

 

[3'sDad]

DD is 12 and has juggled playing travel & LL this season. She is the only member of her All-Star team who currently is playing travel ball, though many of her All-Star team mates have the skill sets required.

This is her last year of LL and she wanted to play one more year against her friends during the regular season and play with them on one more All-Star team. Juggling the schedule is not easy and she did miss a few LL games and 2 partial game days with the travel team, but it all is working out just fine.

Most of the LL All-Star team still playing have a TB pplayer or two on the roster - some more.

LL is great organization, which exposes many players and parents to the game of softball. LL also has many rules - most instituted for safety and almost all of the rest as a result of "parents behaving badly."

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

socalsoftballdad - sounds like they made the rules the best they can to give all girls an opportunity to play if they so choose; which I guess may put a team at a disadvantage or advantage depending on how the rules are used. there is always a team that will lose more than it wins.

My guess is that most of the higher level players would choose not to play at the B level at all anyway. But when you are talking 8u/10u/12u its still too early for them to really even have their game developed for all positions. In TB where most players are good, some players just don't get a chance to play positions they might play at the B classification. Some even ride the bench most of the time. Does it mean they shouldn't be allowed to develop lets say their SS skills at a competitive B level when they are in left field in travel ball? Or even pitch? I know a 10yo that currently plays TB at a 12u level. She plays outfield and never pitches for her TB team. She would get crushed pitching in TB; but she would be the main pitcher for her 10yo (and maybe 12yo) town all star team. By what you want she couldn't pitch at the all star level because she's a TB player; although she doesn't even pitch at the 12u TB level. While she is a skilled player she might never develop her game in other positions if it wasn't for the rec all star level of play.

fastpitch - I see your point that it allows some TB players to play positions in Rec All-Stars they might not get the opportunity to play in TB, thereby developing their skills. Also, it allows the year-round rec players to see competition at the next level to determine if they want to work harder or compete for a position on a TB team in the future.

"Obviously, the differences between rec and TB become more pronounced as the girls get older, but at 10u and 12u, it's not hurting the game to send a #1 TB pitcher into the circle, even if you view it as essentially being nothing more than a 'live practice' for her." (Softsocdad).

On the contrary, a good TB pitcher in 8U will absolutely dominate "B" tournaments which was the point of my original post. To your second point, why would a pitcher want to throw nothing more than "live practice"? If its that easy for her, maybe she needs to play in tournaments that are more challenging for her?