Should travel ball pitchers be allowed to play Rec All-Stars?

[SBDadSanDiego]

I guess what my point was...
TB is a year round commitment here, I can't imagine too many TB coaches that would be ok with their players taking off for a few months so they can boost their ego in rec ball.

 

[Amy in AZ.]

One of my former students (10U) played rec and travel this year. Travel ball cut into her rec games and practice. Her dad was the coach, so she was also the number 1 pitcher. I mean, she truly was the number one pitcher and everyone knew up front that she wouldn't always be available.

So, the rec parents ended up getting mad because the team would lose when TB pitcher wasn't there.

There was a lot of grumbling.

TB pitcher will just play TB next year, so rec isn't going to have this nice young girl at all.

But, when my DD quit rec ball, I can remember her telling me that the quality of pitching (or lack of) was hurting her hitting. Also, she was pitching numerous amounts of pitches because her defense couldn't catch the ball.

There are many things that local cities can do to improve rec softball, but I haven't found one that does.

 

[SoftSocDad]

Took me a while, but I understand now and there really are 2 sides to the coin: what may seem bad for competition might actually be good for competition and encouraging competitiveness...if competition is what it's all about.

Most of the 'rec ball girls' are done for the year. They're not playing this summer and they're not getting ready for fall ball. The rec all-stars season will be done soon. Some of those girls are going to play this fall and then a handful of non-all-star spring rec girls will also sign up for the fall season. They aren't planning to practice until teams are formed in August, though.

There are a small handful of girls who are actively practicing and preparing for the rec fall season. It's summer. Kids and families are just busy with the things they do and softball is an afterthought for most.

By contrast, the TB teams are practicing 5 hours a week, plus supplemental private instruction, and playing the occasional mid-week scrimmage against other TB teams. They're playing 2-3 weekend tournaments each month this summer and will continue with at least 2 tournaments per month into the fall. In winter, there will be some mandatory and some optional practice sessions, but there will be nothing approaching the 8-month 'softball blackout' seen with mean teams and players in the rec leagues.

Take 20 girls of equal height, weight, strength, speed, fitness, visual acuity, etc. (you get where I'm going with this) and split them into 2 groups. Have the group 1 play softball together 4 months a year and have group 2 play softball together 11 months a year and chances are, group 2 will be the better team.

SoCalSoftballdad, if your rec girls are playing and practicing year-round, they're going to be competitive. Do you have a full team of those girls??

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

Took me a while, but I understand now and there really are 2 sides to the coin: what may seem bad for competition might actually be good for competition and encouraging competitiveness...if competition is what it's all about.

Most of the 'rec ball girls' are done for the year. They're not playing this summer and they're not getting ready for fall ball. The rec all-stars season will be done soon. Some of those girls are going to play this fall and then a handful of non-all-star spring rec girls will also sign up for the fall season. They aren't planning to practice until teams are formed in August, though.

There are a small handful of girls who are actively practicing and preparing for the rec fall season. It's summer. Kids and families are just busy with the things they do and softball is an afterthought for most.

By contrast, the TB teams are practicing 5 hours a week, plus supplemental private instruction, and playing the occasional mid-week scrimmage against other TB teams. They're playing 2-3 weekend tournaments each month this summer and will continue with at least 2 tournaments per month into the fall. In winter, there will be some mandatory and some optional practice sessions, but there will be nothing approaching the 8-month 'softball blackout' seen with mean teams and players in the rec leagues.

Take 20 girls of equal height, weight, strength, speed, fitness, visual acuity, etc. (you get where I'm going with this) and split them into 2 groups. Have the group 1 play softball together 4 months a year and have group 2 play softball together 11 months a year and chances are, group 2 will be the better team.

SoCalSoftballdad, if your rec girls are playing and practicing year-round, they're going to be competitive. Do you have a full team of those girls??

In general in my league, the girls that make all-stars are the players that play rec ball in both the Fall and Spring and also do some practicing and have some private instruction (e.g. pitching and hitting coaches) in the off-season. The problem is that fall is limited to 10 games (practices 2x week, 2 hours) and 16 games in the spring season (including playoffs). Most teams consist of 11 or 12 girls, some having never played the game, to 1 - 2 girls who are very experienced in rec ball. In the 2 regular seasons, it is difficult to hold "high-level" practices because the weaker players cannot do the more advanced drills and stations. Lastly, each season the girls will be playing on a completely different team based on pre-season tryouts and draft.

Contrast the above with your TB players. They play a minimum of what 75 - 100 games? against the best competition in the area, practice year round with top quality players, have a better and dedicated coaching staff, and girls can be added or removed from the team anytime?, so that you continually have a high performing team with many of the same girls playing together for years.

Now comes summer rec all-star season. I (we) piece together a team based on the best rec players from Spring (no TB players in our league). Another team in the next city, decides that they want to stack their all-star team, so in the Spring they have TB players play some games during the season (to become eligible) and when it comes time to pick the all-star team, they (of course) chose all the TB players that played in the Spring. Let's say its 5 TB players and the rest are year round rec players. The TB players consists of 2 pitchers, SS, 1B, and 3B. Almost their entire starting infield consists on TB players.

Now my rec team has to compete against this "TB" team in almost every summer tournament and most importantly the District qualifier. Does this seem fair and reasonable to anyone?

 

[Coach JV]

RECREATIONAL SOFTBALL Take it for the textbook meaning. This past spring I coached
DD in rec 14U. I had 12 on the roster, 4 were travel ball players and 2 were TB talent-wise.
The other 6 were outs when facing a team with TB pitching. My DD pitched sparingly, just
to get some innings and stay 'tuned -up'. The majority of innings went to a rec ball pitcher.

Sometimes TB coaches lose sight of the fact that for the rec girls, the rec season means everything!
They play, socialize and try for the city championship. As a coach, I try to make them all better,
I cannot hide 6 outs in a line-up! In our championship game, yes, I pitched DD until game was in hand.
She was the best player on the team, the other girls knew it, rallied around her and appreciated
that she sat as much as the rest of them. Appreciated even more that she pitched them to a $2 trophy

Shame on the rec coach who leans on TB pitcher for the season. Rec is fun, TB is all about the wins.
Coach who plays TB pitcher a lot, doesn't know squat about TB.

 

[momof5]

Travel Ball Pitchers (and players for that matter) are just REALLY REALLY GOOD rec ball players.......

Why shouldn't they be able to play........???

I think quite the contrary and someone explained it best on the next page.
If you have 24 girls and 12 of them are practicing together 2 hours a day 5 days a week plus private lessons and playing tournaments every chance they get year round, then you have the other 12 where they practice together a few times before the rec season starts, play 2 or 3 games a week for 2 months with a practice thrown in here or there weather depending.......do you feel those 2 teams are on par with each other?

Trust me, I wish my daughter could play on a TB team. She loves softball, practices daily on her own, takes pitching lessons, goes to clinics, etc. But due to where we live it is impossible to get her the hour+ to a TB team and not take away from our other children.

 

[fivepotsogold]

In general in my league, the girls that make all-stars are the players that play rec ball in both the Fall and Spring and also do some practicing and have some private instruction (e.g. pitching and hitting coaches) in the off-season. The problem is that fall is limited to 10 games (practices 2x week, 2 hours) and 16 games in the spring season (including playoffs). Most teams consist of 11 or 12 girls, some having never played the game, to 1 - 2 girls who are very experienced in rec ball. In the 2 regular seasons, it is difficult to hold "high-level" practices because the weaker players cannot do the more advanced drills and stations. Lastly, each season the girls will be playing on a completely different team based on pre-season tryouts and draft.

Contrast the above with your TB players. They play a minimum of what 75 - 100 games? against the best competition in the area, practice year round with top quality players, have a better and dedicated coaching staff, and girls can be added or removed from the team anytime?, so that you continually have a high performing team with many of the same girls playing together for years.

Now comes summer rec all-star season. I (we) piece together a team based on the best rec players from Spring (no TB players in our league). Another team in the next city, decides that they want to stack their all-star team, so in the Spring they have TB players play some games during the season (to become eligible) and when it comes time to pick the all-star team, they (of course) chose all the TB players that played in the Spring. Let's say its 5 TB players and the rest are year round rec players. The TB players consists of 2 pitchers, SS, 1B, and 3B. Almost their entire starting infield consists on TB players.

Now my rec team has to compete against this "TB" team in almost every summer tournament and most importantly the District qualifier. Does this seem fair and reasonable to anyone?

NO, this does NOT seem fair at all. From what I have seen this does not seem to be happening in CT. Some teams may have some TB players .. My DD is the only TB player on her 13/14 and is playing All Stars simply because they had to have a roster of 10 and if she didn't play the team would have folded ... she is having fun .. she will pitch against her TB team mate (pitcher) for District which they are looking forward to.
She played reg season as the league had enough players for two teams, but needed two pitchers. Her motivation was more to hang with some friends and work on a new pitch.
The other pitcher was there purely for dominance and that team suffered as they saw no fielding oportunities ... that was sad.

I don't think you can say TB players should or shouldn't play All Stars .. it depends on the situation.
Stacking a team is wrong, adults should be "SPANKED" ...

 

[fastpitch]

In our area rec is Little League. We have an economically challenged town in our area that would get beat up in LL all stars every year by teams who have some pretty good TB players. Last fall they created a pseudo travel ball team made up of regular little league players and dedicated coaches. By TB standards they would be a very very weak team. Most of these players probably wouldn't make and/or couldn't afford most other TB teams in our area. This pseudo TB team played and practiced together since last fall. Because of them playing together all year this year this town made a significant improvement in their level of play in our district and could possibly win the LL district all stars as a team with no high level TB players. They technically did play TB and worked hard to get better. Some people here feel they shouldn't be allowed to play all stars as TB players. I say why shouldn't they be able to be rewarded for their effort?

On that note...most girls start playing rec; its very rare that a girl is born and they are immediately TB players. Most become good TB players by practice and hard work. If a 10yo rec player works harder, practices more, plays TB and becomes better than everyone else should she not be allowed to compete on the rec/LL all star team because one dad's rec/LL all team doesn't have as good or as hard working a player(s)?

 

[BoardMember]

I think quite the contrary and someone explained it best on the next page.
If you have 24 girls and 12 of them are practicing together 2 hours a day 5 days a week plus private lessons and playing tournaments every chance they get year round, then you have the other 12 where they practice together a few times before the rec season starts, play 2 or 3 games a week for 2 months with a practice thrown in here or there weather depending.......do you feel those 2 teams are on par with each other?

Trust me, I wish my daughter could play on a TB team. She loves softball, practices daily on her own, takes pitching lessons, goes to clinics, etc. But due to where we live it is impossible to get her the hour+ to a TB team and not take away from our other children.

I appologize. I though the topic of this thread was "Should TB Pitchers Be Allowed to Play in Recreational ALL STARS..........

It seems to have morphed into "Should an ENTIRE "A" LEVEL TRAVEL BALL TEAM be allowed to ENTER and COMPLETE in a Recreational League AS A TEAM.......Dumb question as far as I'm concerned........

Regardless...........In my neck of the woods, there are 2 distinct CLASSIFICATIONS of TB teams.........

There is "A"...........And there is "B"...........

Pre-High School "A" ball would metaphorically be ALL STAR players who are gathered from SEVERAL rec ball leagues within a regional area, with boundries designating sections..........

Pre-High School "B" ball would be ALL STAR players gathered from ONE SINGLE LEAGUE..........But they are STILL travel ball players...........

The point being that 99.99% of ALL high level players (TB "A", "B" or otherwise) start out as REC BALL ALL STARS...........Because there are recognized for their talent.........

And now you (metaphorically) want to ban this girls level of talent from playing in the "competitive" level of rec ball?.............Because of her dedication to her skill?............

It would seem to me that before you can "go that far" with selective exclusion, you'd better start a league that has special rules regarding "just how good a player can get" before she is banned from the league in general..........

At 9 years old........My daughter was deemed by many "rec ball parents" as "to good for this level" and shouldn't be allowed to pitch..........She hadn't even started her TB career yet............

So this hits close to home for me........And I disagree with ANYONE who says that because a player is VERY GOOD.......REGARDLESS of the reason.........She should be banned from participation........

My 2 cents..........

 

[abbygale]

If your daughter doesn't enjoy getting her lunch handed to her, be thankful. A beatdown, although not much fun, can be a solid motivation for improvement. Plus they get to see what is out there and how they stack up. Then guide her away from others whom would blame a lack of development on anything but the mirror. Life is to short.

A "rec" player which takes responsibility for their own skill development is a "travel" player whether that kid travels or not. Should they be held back? What about a team full of these rec players?