Should batter hit down on ball?

[Shawn]

Tom,

Compleletly off the wall to the topic what you quoted, and what Jack said.

I haven't looked at the videos yet.

Jack has little understanding and can only say that a hitter needs to work on rotational principles, accelerating the barrel rearward.

Jack was only close in the beginning when talking about transfer mechanics. When he talked about there being a problem with actually transferring energy into the barrel (hands/arms).

As far as really understanding what is happening and how to correct the issue, he is way out in left feild (he has no practical application). Mainly because he see's everything as a mechanic and has no understanding of biomechanics. Which has been showed over and over, in every discussion on his site.

 

[Shawn]

Tom,

Already seen the videos, I really like how he uses less skilled hitters with a higher shutter speed and tries to compare them to a few hitters (which I doubt very much he understands what is happening).

I also liked that you can clearly see Utley's bat and it's not where he says it is in the clip.

It's so easy to pull up 4 random hitters in RVP that disproves everything in the clips you posted. Easy to show at 60 fps the barrel staying at a near 90 degree angle as the elbow lowers and moves forward for 4 or even 5 frames, and even at 5 to 6 frames the barrel, wrists, are still cocked with little if any lose in the hinge angle.

As I mentioned today about the Mankin clips, It's not true that video doesn't lie!. Anyone can find a hitter or swing and make up anything.

 

[tom.guerry]

shawn-
I think in any video of MLB pattern the hands have to stay back while the bat starts and the hips open.

you CAN figure out a way to "swing down" and do this and this is prepared for very much like overhand throw.

It is not easy to figure out how to "swing around" and do this. Swing around thoughts lead to bringing the hands forward early.

As Mankin says:

"As an example, a batter is less likely to lean forward during initiation while concentrating on accelerating the bat-head rearward"

 

[ssarge]

As an example, a batter is less likely to lean forward during initiation while concentrating on accelerating the bat-head rearward

Another quote which sounds good, until you consider that LEANING forward has absolutely nothing to do with the subject you were discussing - retarding the hands from coming forward.

Which is certainly the right objective. Your assertion that the only way to keep the hands from going forward is to use the hands to move backward has not been supported, though. One way to keep the hands from moving forward is to NOT MOVE THEM FORWARD.

 

[Shawn]

It is not easy to figure out how to "swing around" and do this. Swing around thoughts lead to bringing the hands forward early.

As Mankin says:

"As an example, a batter is less likely to lean forward during initiation while concentrating on accelerating the bat-head rearward"

Swing around results in bringing the hands forward early? I think this is a fabrication of the issue.

It's not even really about keeping the hands back, by definition anyone can keep the hands back. It's about amateurs with a sequence issue where there is often an early start in the distal segment, back arm, back elbow, lead arm, bat, etc., where there is some collapsing into the body (leaking problems).

Mankin like I said made some good observations about there being a transfer issue, even with what people called good hip rotation. His understanding of the answer, THT, accelerating the barrel rearward, etc., isn't really an answer to the issues he showed in the clips.

Like I said, and Scott has now said, your quote of Mankin posts and clips are off the topic at hand.

There are many things Mankin has said over the years, some things he understands and other things I think just come from somewhere off in left field. For example Mankin once talked about how he believed what most called separation or X factor (hips leading), was a result of overcoming the inertia of the bat (arms included, in the mass).

And if he would focus on the above, and see what he has tried to explain, is really about a breakdown and not about applying forces incorrectly (sending the barrel rearward, THT, BHT, etc, etc,), then he would not post the clips (use the swings in that clip) and say the things he did in the last THT clips.

And if he really has a clear answer and understanding of biomechanics. His version of how hip and body rotation is created for example would not be such a farce.

I have never seen his Analysis DVD, although his first two videos showed very little usable information or understanding of how to even teach what "he" thinks is happening. I'm guessing his analysis video is similar to the clips he has created in recent years. In which, as he showed in the last THT clip, there really is still no real understanding or explanation of what is happening in the ML swing compared to the amateur swings.

Anyways, this is all off the topic at hand, why is there a swing down cue? And what are the real applications of the cue if any?

 

[tom.guerry]

hit down, no.

swing down, yes.

pattern comes first. swing down is MLB pattern

 

[sluggers]

Guys, you have two topics devoted to your theoretical discussions. Please don't let it bleed over into the other threads.

 

[Mark H]

Any discussion Tom enters is going to be purely theoretical. No getting around that.

 

[druer]

I do teach "leftie slappers" to hit down on the ball, but never from the right side unless I'm just asking them to "over emphasize keeping hands up" on higher pitches. But that is just as a practice drill, then we gradually work back towards hitting middle of the ball for line drive.

 

[softballphreak]

hit down, no.

swing down, yes.

pattern comes first. swing down is MLB pattern

In BB mostly if you want to be on the same trajectory plane of a ball coming from an overhand pitch from a mound you would swing upward on that trajectory.

In SB mostly you wouldn't want to be on the same trajectory of a ball that is rising, say. You would want to be on the same plane but the swing would not be downward. You want the ball over the infielders at least. Unless, of course, you WANTED an infield grounder.

There should not be an assumed downward swing.

One could argue (and demonstrate) that if you swung downward and hit the ball just right you could create major backspin on the ball. But in practicality it doesn't work in competition--no one could be consistent with a swing like that.