Scoring question

[SoAZDad]

CanyonJoe,

I'm old school (paper scorebook and pencil/eraser) and transfer game stats into a spreadsheet that spits out the percentages and averages for the equations I wrote.

The skill levels of play, and the decisions of scorekeepers (e.g. what I may call an error on what I considered a routine play that I thought required ordinary effort for a 12UA player may be ruled a hit by the scorekeeper on the other side of the field), vary markedly in the lower divisions. That said, I place heaviest emphasis on objective stats. One I use to evaluate your issue helps me assess/compare hitters. The stats treats a hit and an error equally, a modified reached base percentage:

rba = h + bb + hp + co + e + fc / pa

 

[CoogansBluff]

ROE is not an option unless you're convinced the fielder originally intended to make the play at 1B and changed after the error.

Correct, although it's important to note (as you did earlier) that an error still may be charged.

But you bring up a point that I sometimes forget - The official scoring of a play is an explanation of why and how a batter did (or did not) reach base. Errors are sometimes secondary to that.

 

[CatchTheFever]

I'm glad this generated some conversation because I seem to come across this stuff weekly (meaning plays that could probably go either way). I viewed this particular play as the 3B doing a good job just knocking the ball down but she seemed to pick it up pretty quickly and instead of firing to 1B, she fired to 2B but was too late. I did not see it as an error on her part at all. IMO, she had a better chance of getting the runner at 1B but it likely would have been close. The batter was RH and has overall good speed but is not lightning quick.

 

[Greenmonsters]

I'm glad this generated some conversation because I seem to come across this stuff weekly (meaning plays that could probably go either way). I viewed this particular play as the 3B doing a good job just knocking the ball down but she seemed to pick it up pretty quickly and instead of firing to 1B, she fired to 2B but was too late. I did not see it as an error on her part at all. IMO, she had a better chance of getting the runner at 1B but it likely would have been close. The batter was RH and has overall good speed but is not lightning quick.

Once you don't field a ball cleanly, an infielder will almost always have a better chance at getting the batter at first than forcing another runner. So while not fielding the ball cleanly might not have been an error, and the ill-advised (based on the result) attempt to get a force at 2B instead of probably getting the batter at first isn't an error, and the official scoring guidelines allow a FC ruling, I'd be inclined to rule it an E-5 if this happened during a HS-aged or college game. Same situation in 12U or rec ball, its probably a hit.

 

[Scorekeeper]

I know scoring purists will crucify me, but I wish in computer scoring today there was a way to classify errors to make the ROE stat more valuable. Even if it was as simple as unforced error versus forced error. If a slapper hits a ball to SS who had to charge it and does not field it cleanly that's much different than an easy ground ball to the first baseman who had it go between her legs. While it's not the number one thing I would look at, it would be nice to look at a kid who has a lot of ROE's and have more of a clue what cause that.

Why would anyone want to crucify you because of your opinion? I’d just ask what do you want the ROE to give you that would make it more valuable? Sounds to me as though you’re looking for another way to give a batter credit for something in the form of a QAB on an error. Just out of curiosity, just how common are ROEs in SB?

Our HSV BB team had 326 ROEs in 7,685 PAs for a rate of 4%. The batter who had the most in 8 years had 17 in 303 PAs for a rate of 5.6%. Had ever single one been scored a hit his BA over that time would have gone from .329 to .357. Some would say WOW! That’s reason enough to try to break them out, but I say it’s silly. Why? Because while the ROEs would be broken out making the hitter look better, but changing only one side of the equation isn’t a very good way to prove anything. How about we break out all his IF hits, Bunt hits, Bloop hits and every other hit where he got “lucky”?

What I’m getting at is, unless the number of ROEs is freakishly high, there will be offsetting things that make it irrelevant. To me it makes much more sense to just look at the kinds of balls in play.

 

[Scorekeeper]

…To Scorekeeper: Remember that a softball F-5 is often 50 feet from the batter, whereas a baseball F-5 might be twice that. A lesser reaction time might make a scorekeeper more forgiving in softball than baseball. That is, on a ball that is hit hard, but not extremely hard.

You might be right. I tend to be a pretty stern taskmaster when it come to this stuff. THTH doesn’t happen a whole lot in my book, and when it does, believe me, the average fielder wouldn’t have made the play. What happens much more often is a bad hop on a routinely hit ball.

 

[SoAZDad]

Bad hops that result in safe BR on 1B, as noted by he scorekeeper, are ruled as hits, not errors. Yes?

 

[Scorekeeper]

ROE is not an option unless you're convinced the fielder originally intended to make the play at 1B and changed after the error.

Simple definitions of FC are generally inadequate (e.g. NCAA 14.2 Scoring Terms). Refer to the section(s) that cover FC in detail.

A fielder’s choice is credited in the following situations:
14.7.1 To a batter:
14.7.1.1 When a ground ball is put in play and any preceding base runner is out on the hit or would have been out had no error occurred.
14.7.1.2 When a ground ball is put in play and the lead base runner is safe, but the batter would have been out had the initial play gone to first base.
...

If those are the only times a FC is allowed to be scored, those rules stink.

Here’s the rule from OBR, which is the basis for all BB and SB rules.

FIELDER’S CHOICE is the act of a fielder who handles a fair grounder and, instead of throwing to first base to put out the batter-runner, throws to another base in an attempt to put out a preceding runner. The term is also used by scorers (a) to account for the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more extra bases when the fielder who handles his safe hit attempts to put out a preceding runner; (b) to account for the advance of a runner (other than by stolen base or error) while a fielder is attempting to put out another runner; and (c) to account for the advance of a runner made solely because of the defensive team’s indifference (undefended steal).

 

[Scorekeeper]

CanyonJoe,

I'm old school (paper scorebook and pencil/eraser) and transfer game stats into a spreadsheet that spits out the percentages and averages for the equations I wrote.

The skill levels of play, and the decisions of scorekeepers (e.g. what I may call an error on what I considered a routine play that I thought required ordinary effort for a 12UA player may be ruled a hit by the scorekeeper on the other side of the field), vary markedly in the lower divisions. That said, I place heaviest emphasis on objective stats. One I use to evaluate your issue helps me assess/compare hitters. The stats treats a hit and an error equally, a modified reached base percentage:

rba = h + bb + hp + co + e + fc / pa

Interesting. For a long time now I’ve done “objective” stats myself. On that 1st report the Total Reached Safely include anytime a batter reaches 1st base safely. The other one 2 pages breaks it out, but it’s really the same thing you’re doing. I did that when I was a paper and pencil guy, then programmed it into my scoring program so I don’t have to track it. That’s what computers do.

View attachment objbatting.pdf
View attachment disrupt1.pdf

Great minds!

 

[Scorekeeper]

Bad hops that result in safe BR on 1B, as noted by he scorekeeper, are ruled as hits, not errors. Yes?

Almost every time, as they should be.