Scoring Question – Errors, RBI’s and Earned Runs

[Greenmonsters]

If an official scorer gives Batter #2 an RBI in the most recently described situation, they should also personally be responsibile for giving all the players on both teams little plastic trophies for showing up at the game. Applying this type of scoring logic consistently would help the trophy manufucturers thrive and the economy prosper.

 

[CoogansBluff]

You're right; PB vs. WP is the toughest thing for me to judge.

I think I agree that batter #2 would get the RBI - I didn't think you could award "rectroactive" RBI's. Batter 2 was the one involved in the play.

You are correct that you cannot award retroactive RBI's, so that rules out the RBI for Batter Three. But in this case, NEITHER player would or should get the RBI. Neither drove in the run.

Ok, I know I don't know bupkiss about scoring, but I'd give Batter Two the RBI. She was the one who put the ball in play, allowing Batter One to take the big lead which drew the errant throw. Even though she was out at first, it was still a live ball at the time of the error and score. Sometimes you get lucky when you put the ball in play. :-D JMHO.

For statistics to mean anything, there must be rules and definitions that all scorers follow. A lot of scorekeepers think that they are independent judges whose job is to bring about fairness. They may say, "That's what I think an RBI should be, so that's what I'm giving her.'' Or they think it's their job to reward their players and give them what they ''deserve.''

That's not the job of a scorekeeper, so what you're really saying is that you don't like the definition of an RBI. There's nothing wrong with questioning that. In fact, the definition of certain statistics have changed over the years.

However, in the case of the RBI, I don't agree w/ your logic. The fact that the batter put the ball in play did not cause the first baseman to choose to throw to 3B, and it did not cause the runner to take a bigger lead. Those things can happen without the ball being struck. Runners take leads on every pitch, and the defense may choose to make a play on baserunners at any time. On the play in question, nobody ''drove in'' the run. What happened was between the runner and the fielders.

 

[MsDinosaur]

Ok, thanks for the explanation. So it was an earned run, but no one gets an RBI.

If the pitcher had gotten out of the inning without giving up any hits or walks, hbp, etc. after Batter One's triple, would that run be charged as an earned run or would that become an unearned run?

 

[Greenmonsters]

Ok, thanks for the explanation. So it was an earned run, but no one gets an RBI.

If the pitcher had gotten out of the inning without giving up any hits or walks, hbp, etc. after Batter One's triple, would that run be charged as an earned run or would that become an unearned run?

It would then be unearned.

 

[MsDinosaur]

I always thought scorekeeping was complicated. Now I'm seeing that it's really complicated, where even though you've seen a play unfold, you can't always determine exactly what should be charged until after the last out is recorded.

I'm planning to stick with my usual questions to our scorekeeper: What's the score? -and- How many outs are there? ;-)

 

[Sweet Lou]

Ms. Dino, to look at it another way.
Batter 1 reaches on an E
Advances to 2nd on a PB
Advances to 3rd when batter 2 ROE.
Batter 3 hits sac fly to LF that scores batter 1.

How would you score this for B3 plate appearance & P earned runs?

The correct rulling for B3 is SF, no AB charged to B3 for purpose of AVE and RBI credited to B3.

Pitcher is not charged an earned run as B1, B2 & B3 "should" have been the 1st, 2nd and 3rd outs of the inning. In fact should P melt down in the circle at this point because her defense killed her and the next 6 batters all hit HRs all the runs that this P allows for the rest of the inning are unearned but batters are still credited RBIs. If a new P is brought in she can be charged with earned runs even though there should have been 3 outs in the inning.

Under the scenario where the latter batter gets a hit after a run scored on WP, PB, or E is credited with a "phantom RBI" what would you do in a situation like this where the girls only got RBIs because the runners that got on in front of them reached on errors? Do you say well that girl shouldn't have been on so no RBI for the batter? Clearly the answer is going to be no to that question. So sometimes it helps to look at the reverse of a situation.

 

[GI Tom]

...., where even though you've seen a play unfold, you can't always determine exactly what should be charged until after the last out is recorded.

This to me is usually where I see the most errors in scorekeeping occurring. Sometimes you do simply have to wait to see what occurs to statistically bucketize (one of my favorite non-words) where everything goes. The end of a particular play doesn't mean you must immediately record certain stats.

Now, on the other topic about WP and PB, since my DD is a C (currently playing in college) I can tell you in my book, which is completely unofficial, and generally useless now that someone else records stats, if that darn ball grazes one speck of dirt and my DD can't get the handle on it, we're going WP all the way.

 

[MsDinosaur]

Ms. Dino, to look at it another way.
Batter 1 reaches on an E
Advances to 2nd on a PB
Advances to 3rd when batter 2 ROE.
Batter 3 hits sac fly to LF that scores batter 1.

How would you score this for B3 plate appearance & P earned runs?

The correct rulling for B3 is SF, no AB charged to B3 for purpose of AVE and RBI credited to B3.

Pitcher is not charged an earned run as B1, B2 & B3 "should" have been the 1st, 2nd and 3rd outs of the inning. In fact should P melt down in the circle at this point because her defense killed her and the next 6 batters all hit HRs all the runs that this P allows for the rest of the inning are unearned but batters are still credited RBIs. If a new P is brought in she can be charged with earned runs even though there should have been 3 outs in the inning.

Under the scenario where the latter batter gets a hit after a run scored on WP, PB, or E is credited with a "phantom RBI" what would you do in a situation like this where the girls only got RBIs because the runners that got on in front of them reached on errors? Do you say well that girl shouldn't have been on so no RBI for the batter? Clearly the answer is going to be no to that question. So sometimes it helps to look at the reverse of a situation.

That makes sense, if a batter comes up to the plate and drives in a baserunner, it's clear that she should get the RBI, even if the runner wouldn't have been there if it hadn't been for an error. That's not the batter's fault, just like your three errors leading to a run scenario isn't the pitcher's fault.

Well...what if the passed ball was really a wild pitch? (As a catcher's Mom, I assume WP!) I'm guessing the pitcher may get the error, but not the earned run?

 

[Sweet Lou]

PB is unearned
WP is earned

 

[Greenmonsters]

PB is unearned
WP is earned

Although both are mistakes, neither are officially recorded as an "error" according to all scoring rules. And I can't remember the last time I saw a PB!