RVP connection point position

[mann]

OK, what happens at this point that makes it the position of "truth"


And how come it looks so different in so many different swings?

In some swings it is Stacked, and in some the forearm is more horizontal.

Sometimes the hands never get over, or, in other words, the hands will lead the elbow.

The whip created from a good perfect pivot point would be one answer.

In so many swings the hands are still loaded past this point so am need more information, and this is the place to get it, between the conflicts.

I take it that there is no RVP point here?

But there is, if you freeze it.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Do you believe that the RVP Connection Point Position and Torque Position (i.e., Truth Position) are the same?

I don't.

 

[mann]

no idea, can I be educated please?

Looks the same to me from the side. Just because we have a side view shouldn't fool you into believing that the top hand is directly over the top elbow ..... it isn't.

Neither are many HL Top hands over the top elbow either. and I am no HL hitter.


Is "having the top over the top elbow" a hanson principle?

every MLB very HL hitter gets into the "top hand over elbow?

Even in this great image of Bonds, his hands are not over his elbow.
it would be even more apparent, if the camera angle were from the Side, not from this more front angled view.

Why is it important to be stacked?

What is the truth position as compared to the stacked position?

 

[mann]

This Position was on my thoughts the last few weeks as I work my way through 17 players, getting ready for post season.

Is possible to get the barrel down that Ted Williams is in on the right? He has stopped his swing and is demonstrating something, as compared to Manny being able to get the barrel down, to pivot and work your hands/wrists?



Hands in front of the elbow seems to be a better position for pivot. Now as for whip and the corner, I think it is created before this happens.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

no idea, can I be educated please?



Neither are many HL Top hands over the top elbow either. and I am no HL hitter.


Is "having the top over the top elbow" a hanson principle?

every MLB very HL hitter gets into the "top hand over elbow?

Even in this great image of Bonds, his hands are not over his elbow.
it would be even more apparent, if the camera angle were from the Side, not from this more front angled view.

Why is it important to be stacked?

What is the truth position as compared to the stacked position?

Mann, real quick …

The Torque Position (i.e., Truth Position) is the position you get into during the “missing frames” / “extra stretch”. The RVP Connection Point Position is slightly further downstream … where the rear hip is roughly aligned with the “rear shoulder” + “rear elbow” + “hands”, with the rear arm in an “upright vee” orientation. The photo that you posted of Bonds is of the RVP Connection Point Position ... which is downstream from the Torque (Truth) position.

Having the top hand over the top elbow is not “a Hanson Principle” (using the terminology from your post).

Correct … even in that photo of Bonds the hands are not over the rear elbow. For a while there was a hitting system here that advocated that … it was based on a very strange notion … and when folks performed a verification screen they realized it wasn’t correct … as you’ve pointed out here.

I’m not necessarily agreeing with your notion of ‘stacked’ … you’d have to be a bit more clear … I certainly don’t see the hands directly over the rear elbow … so if that is your definition of stacked then I can’t support it. On a somewhat related note, I do support a “power-vee” orientation … which is what I see in the photo of Bonds that you posted.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Mann, for a moment, consider the swing from the perspective of "Around / Along".

Relative to rear forearm ...... During the "Around" the barrel is rotated 'around' the rear forearm, whereas during the "Along" the barrel is flailed/cast/sent/thrown 'Along' the rear forearm.

Pretty simple concept. Let's put a visual behind it.

Around:

Along:

You've likely heard the phrase "short-to, long-through". The "Around" is "short-to". The "Along" is "long-through".

So why do I bring this up? I bring this up because if you can grasp the notion of "Around/Along", then you can "feel" the importance of the "RVP Connection Point Position", and perhaps understand what was truly meant when it was called "connection" ... and it does not mean a fixed positional connection ... but more a flow of energy as body segments became aligned (connected).

The throwing of the barrel into the "Along" ... is basically the throwing of the barrel into the "point of no return". That is what is occurring at the transition between the "Along" and the "Around". To a first order, you can think of the RVP Connection Point as that transition point. Perform some swings and see if you can "feel" it. I can ... but you have to develop your own feel sensors.

As for the Torque position ... that's the "extra stretch" (i.e., the "missing frames") ... and you "work the barrel" (i.e., "turn the barrel") against that "extra stretch" ... and as you do, you will "feel" the energy source for the barrel being "slungshot" towards impact. It's a distinct "feel" .... and it goes by several names ... the Torque Position, the Truth Position, the Explosion Point Position, etc.. Virtually every decent hitting system out there has discovered it and attempted to describe it. Again, perform some swings and see if you can gain the "feel".

The "feel" of passing through the RVP Connection Point and Torque Position are distinctly different. Turn on the appropriate feel sensors and get a feel for both.

 

[Cannonball]

Mann, I think that everyone knows that I used RVP for most of my dd's career when working on video. I compared her to Pujols in various positions. While I had fun doing it, I'd agree with what FFS said about the Torque Position. Again, it was fun doing this video work but the problem will always remain that these positions are points in time and hitting is a dynamic event. Sure, I caught BB very close at times but most of the time, it was back to work. LOL! I would still do it all the same and for me RVP was a great tool to have. I miss having it. I had to have my computer reimaged and have lost so much stuff. In fact, I lost a lot of my video of BB at younger ages and those "snapshots" of her during the swing.

 

[mann]

I can see how the front arm is a part of how far the hands get outside of the torso. straightening that front arm push the v wider. Now if that straight arm drapes across the body, and then it does not as in your gifs above?

Me, I see whip and guiding the bat, some might see push.


As for feel, I try everything, and I get the extra stretch feel. it the hand and barrel path I am working on now.

Like Cannonball says, this area is so very dynamic, its hard to nail down.

this point, the RVP, it moves all around, is this fair to say?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I take it that there is no RVP point here?

But there is, if you freeze it.

So let’s answer your question here.

Is there an RVP Connection Point position in this swing?

You sort of answered that question with both a "no" and a "yes" ..... and you were basically right on both accounts .... but more correct with the "no" IMO ... since the "intent" of passage through the position was not captured.

Yes, in this demonstration there is an orientation in which the “hands” + “rear elbow” + “rear shoulder” align with the “rear hip”. In this Bustos demonstration this occurs with the “top hand” stacked over the rear elbow” … not a “power-vee” orientation. However, and this is the key, the form of connection that the RVP system was attempting to describe, is not present. Ask yourself … is the barrel being thrown into "the point of no return" from what looks like the RVP Connection Point position in this demonstration? The answer is “no”. The proper energy flow is not present. It’s a failure of understanding what the RVP system was truly attempting to describe. It’s a “false” RVP Connection Point IMO.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I can see how the front arm is a part of how far the hands get outside of the torso. straightening that front arm push the v wider. Now if that straight arm drapes across the body, and then it does not as in your gifs above?

Me, I see whip and guiding the bat, some might see push.


As for feel, I try everything, and I get the extra stretch feel. it the hand and barrel path I am working on now.

Like Cannonball says, this area is so very dynamic, its hard to nail down.

this point, the RVP, it moves all around, is this fair to say?

Mann, I understand that you see a significant difference in the lead arm usage between the Bustos demonstration and the actual swing posted here. It's yet another difference .... and best discussed under a different topic so as not to get off course.

As to your question about the RVP Connection Point moving around ..... do you mean the "upright vee" orientation relative to the "rear hip"? If so .... then yes, that will move around a bit.