Rise Ball and IR

[Phathead]

While dd has a less than perfect rise it does stay elavated longer than other pitches, her que that worked was to give dad the "finger" right after release. That analogy helped her cut under and thru release then her fingers rotate toward first base dugout on follow thru.

 

[Ken B]

I like coach james' points on the rise.

John Gay is said to develop good rise ballers and I think one of the reasons why is that he promotes staying very open at release.

Try this: Stand facing 3B (completely open for a RHP.) Let the right arm hang with the elbow slightly flexed and pinned to the side/hip. Hold the hand at the front of the right pocket. Turn the hand as far as it will comfortably go counterclockwise--should be facing 3B. Now, turn your whole body 45 degrees--facing halfway from 3b to home. The hand should be facing the same. The point is, it's tough to keep the hand open through release if the shoulders close hard. Some give a cue to dip the rear shoulder back at release--I believe also helps keep the torso from closing.

Things to try when playing with the rise:
-Resist pronation of the hand/forearm while the upper arm IR's
-Resist closing the shoulders at release
-Whip the fingers under and up the front of the ball (doesn't really happen, but use it as a cue...)

riseball pointed out in another post, and Pauly's video shows this well: the spin of the ball is primarily influenced by the last finger touching the ball. Pauly's video shows why it's almost impossible to get 6/12 spin at full pitching speed--the last finger just can't quite release the ball, right at 6 o'clock, while moving towards the target. I think that Hal's Bent-Fingered Rise is one way to improve back spin and worth playing with.

 

[Ken B]

That said, I'd love to get a group together with cameras and plot the trajectories of various releases/feels/grips. I believe FFS has suggested that a fast spiral thrown with full IR/whip will be as effective as any pitch with an exaggerated effort to spin the ball backwards. With speed being a key component to fighting gravity, this makes pretty good sense. I'm not good at fizzucks, but I can tell you that any of my attempts to force 6/12 spin in full motion slows the ball down noticeably and although it seems to hang, I have no idea what the actual path is. Balswick prefers backspin and I don't recall the specifics of the conversation, but I believe he suggested the off-speed result that comes with backspin was part of the desired result (wish he'd stop by more often...)

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

The full thread: http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/19090-4-seam-rise-wrist-flexion-barrel.html

Notice that BM is “slicing/cutting”. It is not a feel of the tip of the index finger being the last to contact the ball … it is more a feel of the ball being sliced/cut, or of the ball coming off of the edge/side of the index finger. Unlike with a dropball/fastball where the tip of the index finger comes off of the ball on the ‘outside’ of the ball, the index finger roll-off, or slicing/cutting action, is on the ‘inside’ of the ball.

 

[Dial]

I think Coach James has nailed it pretty good. This video should give a decent comparison of the rise and drop.....very interesting to see the initial follow through after release....kind of explains how the design of the shoulder/elbow/wrist joints encourage I/R.

Rick,

The issue my DD is having is when she gets to brush contact and the arm start to turn inward is when she tries to cut underneath the ball so it comes out more bullet than backwards. Should the cutting action come before the brush?? Just staying inside the ball as long as possible. I also noticed from your vid that sarah was releasing more off the front of the thigh. Would that be a 3rd level rise??

 

[Ken B]

FFS--I edited the "tip" from finger above. Can you describe the outside vs inside of the ball?

 

[Ken B]

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

FFS--I edited the "tip" from finger above. Can you describe the outside vs inside of the ball?

At approximately 7-O’Clock the hand is ‘inside’ the ball … IR style … as opposed to ‘behind’ the ball (HE-style). This is what I mean by ‘inside’.

For a dropball/fastball the forearm will pronate having the index finger of the throwing hand move from 'inside' to ‘behind’ the ball, as well as be on the ‘outside’ of the ball.

For a riseball the forearm will attempt to resist this pronation and the cutting action is more on the ‘inside’ of the ball.

 

[Rick Pauly]

riseball pointed out in another post, and Pauly's video shows this well: the spin of the ball is primarily influenced by the last finger touching the ball. Pauly's video shows why it's almost impossible to get 6/12 spin at full pitching speed--the last finger just can't quite release the ball, right at 6 o'clock, while moving towards the target. I think that Hal's Bent-Fingered Rise is one way to improve back spin and worth playing with.

Ken
Is one of these the grip that Hal may have been referring to?
Sarah uses the one on the left. I prefer the one on the right....it seems to achieve a better spin axis and slightly higher spin rate.....probably why most men use this one.

 

[Ken B]

His was a little like yours.



Here's the thread: http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/292-teaching-bent-fingered-rise-up.html

Something interesting to note about Hal is that the ball in his hand is not an 11 inch!!! His hands look bigger than mine!