Is todays' travel ball teams as strong now as they were 5 years ago? Many have told me that travel ball today is less competitive now than it was when their DDs played. Watered down and glorified rec ball are terms they use to describe todays' travel ball teams. One parent said if their DD doesn't get the pitching time the parent thinks she deserves, then they start a team to build around their DD.I tend to agree. Do you believe this is evident in your area?
Quality of Travel Ball
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It is difficult to gauge it. Are the bats superior to 5 yrs back?
If yes, then there should be more offense. I don't know of a barometer to
accurately measure it. (my time machine is broken too)
With the 'soft economy' it is possible that some families
are not playing. 'A' TRAVEL is still more competitive than 'B'. In 2009, the competition
was very good in the South. In the 'open' tournaments, the A teams were always the best.
The book still needs to be written for 2010.
If yes, then there should be more offense. I don't know of a barometer to
accurately measure it. (my time machine is broken too)
With the 'soft economy' it is possible that some families
are not playing. 'A' TRAVEL is still more competitive than 'B'. In 2009, the competition
was very good in the South. In the 'open' tournaments, the A teams were always the best.
The book still needs to be written for 2010.
- Oct 28, 2009
- 52
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Everyone (literally) I talk to about this wholeheartedly agrees that the drop-off is undeniable. Usually, it is a comparison that goes a little further back than the 5 years you mention, but the conclusion is the same. Certainly, the answer will be different in other parts of the country, but here it is an easy topic.
Five to ten years ago, we could go to the local softball complex (10 fields) not knowing whether an on-going tournament was an ASA "A" or "B" tournament, but watch a few innings of side-by-side games and figure it out quickly. Now, in a similar situation, we would have educated guesses as to "A" or "B", but would be far less confident that we are correct.
On-line registration of teams and other conveniences have made it easy for every displeased parent to start a "Mad Dad" team. And because there are so many teams, "forum shopping" for the right tournaments in the right organization (ASA, USSSA, NSA, and the other alphabet orgs) allows weak teams to appear that they are competitive.
Travel ball is certainly much more than glorified Rec ball. But in at least our area, there is no comparison between the "A" teams of today and "A" teams of a few years back.
I am not sure whether it's a good thing (more opportunities for athletes) or a bad thing (families receiving less bang for their (many) bucks), but there has been a drop-off in quality over the years.
Five to ten years ago, we could go to the local softball complex (10 fields) not knowing whether an on-going tournament was an ASA "A" or "B" tournament, but watch a few innings of side-by-side games and figure it out quickly. Now, in a similar situation, we would have educated guesses as to "A" or "B", but would be far less confident that we are correct.
On-line registration of teams and other conveniences have made it easy for every displeased parent to start a "Mad Dad" team. And because there are so many teams, "forum shopping" for the right tournaments in the right organization (ASA, USSSA, NSA, and the other alphabet orgs) allows weak teams to appear that they are competitive.
Travel ball is certainly much more than glorified Rec ball. But in at least our area, there is no comparison between the "A" teams of today and "A" teams of a few years back.
I am not sure whether it's a good thing (more opportunities for athletes) or a bad thing (families receiving less bang for their (many) bucks), but there has been a drop-off in quality over the years.
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MVLA-I do agree with you about the weak teams. You struck a brain wave in me.
Last year we carried 12 on roster. The 12th strongest did not improve at all
by season's end. She went to a 'start-up team' and is starting at SS and batting leadoff.
Her BA for 2009 was .089
YES, SOME TEAMS ARE WATERED DOWN-SOME ESTABLISHED PROGRAMS ALWAYS ATTRACT
THE BETTER PLAYERS, THEREFORE ARE COMPETITIVE
Last year we carried 12 on roster. The 12th strongest did not improve at all
by season's end. She went to a 'start-up team' and is starting at SS and batting leadoff.
Her BA for 2009 was .089
YES, SOME TEAMS ARE WATERED DOWN-SOME ESTABLISHED PROGRAMS ALWAYS ATTRACT
THE BETTER PLAYERS, THEREFORE ARE COMPETITIVE
- Jul 28, 2008
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I heard this same argument 5 years ago. Around here you have Little League or you get on a travel team. I have been seeing the girls softball in Little League all but disappear. This is mainly due to most of the leagues caring mainly about boys baseball and not a hoot about softball. Our district used to always win state and had a good relationship with the travel ball coaches, so there was a good number of girls who did both. That has now disappeared and the quality of the LL's is nonexistent. Those girls have not gone over to the travel ball side where they get attention, good coaching and better play. With that comes some watering down. I don't look at that as being the girls' fault, but rather the coaching they are receiving. We have A & B teams with some C teams playing. Problem is there isn't enough teams to separate them out of the mix into their own categories. The better teams start traveling out of the area to CA, NV, CO and AZ to play ball after they continually beat up on the local teams.
There is somewhat more talent today than 10 years ago, but that talent is spread across many more teams.
E.g., at one time, the only tournament in Colorado over the 4th of July was the Boulder Tournament. That tournament had one 16U division and one 18U division. That was it...
Now, over the 4th of July in Denver:
(1) The Louisville Slugger Independence Day Tournament, which has expanded to about twice as many teams as 10 years ago
(2) the Fireworks Tournament
(3) The Sparkler
These are all huge tournaments, with lots and lots of teams. The number of talented girls has increased also, but it doesn't come close to matching the increase in the number of teams.
Based on the overall skill and speed of the teams today, the teams that I see playing "A" ball now would be "B" level teams 10 years ago.
The good teams today are very, very good. The best teams today (Batbusters, Lady Bombers, etc.) would probably be as good as or better than those same teams 10 years ago. But, the average team today is far below the average team of a few years ago.
E.g., at one time, the only tournament in Colorado over the 4th of July was the Boulder Tournament. That tournament had one 16U division and one 18U division. That was it...
Now, over the 4th of July in Denver:
(1) The Louisville Slugger Independence Day Tournament, which has expanded to about twice as many teams as 10 years ago
(2) the Fireworks Tournament
(3) The Sparkler
These are all huge tournaments, with lots and lots of teams. The number of talented girls has increased also, but it doesn't come close to matching the increase in the number of teams.
Based on the overall skill and speed of the teams today, the teams that I see playing "A" ball now would be "B" level teams 10 years ago.
The good teams today are very, very good. The best teams today (Batbusters, Lady Bombers, etc.) would probably be as good as or better than those same teams 10 years ago. But, the average team today is far below the average team of a few years ago.
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My dd's were just starting coach-pitch rec ball five years ago so although I wouldn't know I suspect there's a lot of truth to "watered down & weaker" claims but also a good bit of perception inflation involved as well. If you lived in the suburbs of a fairly large city and played travel ball five years ago didn't you have to travel out of town more frequently to find tournaments at all, much less decent quality ones?
We can now play just about an entire 12-14 tournament spring schedule without leaving town, although we do for a few of the better tournaments. The local tourney's will have their share of B and C class teams which probably wouldn't have been around in years past but once you get to the quarter and semi finals the teams are all good and well coached (at least based on my newbie perceptions).
The thing that's surprised me at the 10u level is how many young kids there are even on teams from good organizations. Geography and quality of rec options may be a factor but I'm pretty skeptical of the idea that a 8 year old girl is going to be get that much better playing A level travel ball instead of playing no-walk, coach or machine pitch rec ball with her friends from school.
We can now play just about an entire 12-14 tournament spring schedule without leaving town, although we do for a few of the better tournaments. The local tourney's will have their share of B and C class teams which probably wouldn't have been around in years past but once you get to the quarter and semi finals the teams are all good and well coached (at least based on my newbie perceptions).
The thing that's surprised me at the 10u level is how many young kids there are even on teams from good organizations. Geography and quality of rec options may be a factor but I'm pretty skeptical of the idea that a 8 year old girl is going to be get that much better playing A level travel ball instead of playing no-walk, coach or machine pitch rec ball with her friends from school.
- Oct 28, 2009
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Sluggers, I am in complete agreement. This is a separate topic (Is the pool of talented players deeper? vs. Is the pool of talented teams as deep?), but this topic is even easier to address.
The talent pool is certainly deeper. I think there are three main contributions to this. The first is the availability of affordable video analysis. I have Dartfish and I have benefitted from it. But after I spent all that money (no complaints, it's worth it), out comes a free program that is almost as powerful and is more intuitive. The second is the availabilty of on-line clinics, such as the ones at Sportskool.com. And the third is the availability of coaching information through this forum. I cannot overemphasis how much I am benefitting from this forum.
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- Oct 22, 2009
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When my DD began to play travel ball at 11 I was told the same thing. That was 13 yrs ago.
Too many teams they said were spreading out the talent.
There were maybe 3 10u teams in a 100 mile radius, and they just played each other at every tournament.
When she was 13, I got a call from a 14u coach. He said he wanted to form a team like they had years ago, a team comprised of just the best of the best out of the entire county, a team like that could dominate the area and be extremely competitive at state and national tournaments he said.
The only way we can do this he said, is to get the area coaches all on board with this working as a team and not individually. So about 5 of us area coaches got together for several meetings and made the deal--1 team. Yes, some kids from our teams were not going to make the cut. It did have it's rocky starts and many meetings but it worked, we dominated the area tournaments, won state and placed 3rd in Nationals.
In just 3 years time the 3 10u teams had ballooned to dozens! Now there was 8u travel teams.
The same rec leagues 15 yrs ago that had 24 teams, now have to co-op other teams just to play more than 2-3 teams.
If you only have a few travel teams in a very large area, you can throw a try-out to fill a team. Nowadays coaches just stick kids on the team from rec just to get enough to play.
Too many teams they said were spreading out the talent.
There were maybe 3 10u teams in a 100 mile radius, and they just played each other at every tournament.
When she was 13, I got a call from a 14u coach. He said he wanted to form a team like they had years ago, a team comprised of just the best of the best out of the entire county, a team like that could dominate the area and be extremely competitive at state and national tournaments he said.
The only way we can do this he said, is to get the area coaches all on board with this working as a team and not individually. So about 5 of us area coaches got together for several meetings and made the deal--1 team. Yes, some kids from our teams were not going to make the cut. It did have it's rocky starts and many meetings but it worked, we dominated the area tournaments, won state and placed 3rd in Nationals.
In just 3 years time the 3 10u teams had ballooned to dozens! Now there was 8u travel teams.
The same rec leagues 15 yrs ago that had 24 teams, now have to co-op other teams just to play more than 2-3 teams.
If you only have a few travel teams in a very large area, you can throw a try-out to fill a team. Nowadays coaches just stick kids on the team from rec just to get enough to play.
Yes, avg "A" ball will appear lesser if you just look at most of the for profit "sign up and pay (play)" tournaments.
My estimation is that maybe 8 out of every 10 teams calling themselves an "A" team today are well below what would have used to be considered a real A "travel " team 15 yrs ago. I wont even comment on B. In fact, most are not travel teams, they are simply "tournament " teams. The only travel they do is to go to maybe go to an end of season tournament.
You just have to look where the top A teams play. They will seek out the better competition in elite invitational tournaments, play up in the next age group, etc, because an average A tournament in their own age offers little competition on a local or regional level (so cal is obviously an exception) .
How weak is the avg competition by comparison? How about even when playing up, the really good teams may sweep a tournament and outscore their opponents of the weekend 50-3 or such. Every week. Out of 70+ games, they can often count losses for the season on one hand.
For profit organizations where everyone gets to go to an end of season tournament, has encouraged the tremendous # of mediocre teams, many of them "daddy"teams. I guess overall thats a positive, more girls involved, but it spreads the truly talented girls thin, hurts many who spend several years bouncing around looking for a real elite team, and makes fielding a really good team difficult, unless you have the reputation to draw them to you.
The really good teams are still there though, just scattered among the riff-raff, and you will see them at the top level of ASA/USA nationals., maybe a few somewhere else too.
My estimation is that maybe 8 out of every 10 teams calling themselves an "A" team today are well below what would have used to be considered a real A "travel " team 15 yrs ago. I wont even comment on B. In fact, most are not travel teams, they are simply "tournament " teams. The only travel they do is to go to maybe go to an end of season tournament.
You just have to look where the top A teams play. They will seek out the better competition in elite invitational tournaments, play up in the next age group, etc, because an average A tournament in their own age offers little competition on a local or regional level (so cal is obviously an exception) .
How weak is the avg competition by comparison? How about even when playing up, the really good teams may sweep a tournament and outscore their opponents of the weekend 50-3 or such. Every week. Out of 70+ games, they can often count losses for the season on one hand.
For profit organizations where everyone gets to go to an end of season tournament, has encouraged the tremendous # of mediocre teams, many of them "daddy"teams. I guess overall thats a positive, more girls involved, but it spreads the truly talented girls thin, hurts many who spend several years bouncing around looking for a real elite team, and makes fielding a really good team difficult, unless you have the reputation to draw them to you.
The really good teams are still there though, just scattered among the riff-raff, and you will see them at the top level of ASA/USA nationals., maybe a few somewhere else too.
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