Problems with the change-up!

[Dave619]

My 12 yo DD is having problems with her change-up and we need help! Our pitching goal this winter is to improve her consistency with her CU.

DD throws a flip change. I went back and searched the forum and found a few threads and read through those. In those threads I found that some people do not like the flip change, some throw the flip change with back rotation, some throw the flip change and it has more of a 3 to 9 rotation.

When DD throws this correctly using a 3 to 9 rotation it is a great pitch. Of course the issue is she is all over the place with it at times...we can't seem to get the spin, correct speed, and location consistently. I think if she can get the spin correct then the speed may take care of itself. Maybe we are approaching this wrong with the spin, etc?

We have tried a few different grips to get the spin correct, but we cannot find what works consistently. In looking at Hillhouse's video he talks about rolling the hand to keep the ball down if I remember correctly? if I remember correctly. Does anyone have any specific slow motion videos of how to throw the flip change or any advice I would greatly appreciate it. Hope you all have a happy holiday season!

 

[FrozenRope]

Can you post a video? I taught my DD how to throw the flip myself. I don't know where the 3-9 spin is supposed to come from... that sounds more like a horseshoe or circle change. Basically, the flip will have backspin, exact opposite of the drop. The queue that helped us is the thought of finishing NO HIGHER than the belly button. You don't want a big high wave in the air after release. The other mechanical points I stressed are hip follows the ball on the close, and nose over the front toe...not leaning...but the whole body should finish erect.

 

[ArmWhip]

I am not a big fan of the flip change, I haven't seen one that I consider effective. If thrown with backspin it is difficult to master, easy to detect and too slow. The best one that I have seen was thrown by Taryn Mowatt when she pitched for Arizona, it had 3-9 spin. High speed video that I took revealed that as she released it she twisted her hand over the top of the ball from 3-9 putting a counter clockwise spin on it (from the pitchers perspective). What made it so effective was that after release she had a quick 'flick' follow through that really sold it as a fastball. There is a girl on my team that uses it, it has backspin. When she gets it over (rarely) it works but as she goes up the ladder it's going to get hammered.

 

[Rick Pauly]

AW
Really glad someone else made the post you did!!!!!! Can't agree enough with what you have stated.
I would get down on my knees and beg anyone learning a change up to NOT LEARN A FLIP CHANGE UP....right up there in that category would be a KNUCKLE CHANGE UP. Both these pitches are "cute" at the 10U level but really are not effective as you move up the ladder. I try not to get emotional about pitching related things......the flip and knuckle change up get me emotional.

This probably qualifies as a rant.....man, I've got to do a few more posts so I don't go out of the year on a low note....

I am not a big fan of the flip change, I haven't seen one that I consider effective. If thrown with backspin it is difficult to master, easy to detect and too slow. The best one that I have seen was thrown by Taryn Mowatt when she pitched for Arizona, it had 3-9 spin. High speed video that I took revealed that as she released it she twisted her hand over the top of the ball from 3-9 putting a counter clockwise spin on it (from the pitchers perspective). What made it so effective was that after release she had a quick 'flick' follow through that really sold it as a fastball. There is a girl on my team that uses it, it has backspin. When she gets it over (rarely) it works but as she goes up the ladder it's going to get hammered.

 

[Doug Romrell]

AW
Really glad someone else made the post you did!!!!!! Can't agree enough with what you have stated.
I would get down on my knees and beg anyone learning a change up to NOT LEARN A FLIP CHANGE UP....right up there in that category would be a KNUCKLE CHANGE UP. Both these pitches are "cute" at the 10U level but really are not effective as you move up the ladder. I try not to get emotional about pitching related things......the flip and knuckle change up get me emotional.

This probably qualifies as a rant.....man, I've got to do a few more posts so I don't go out of the year on a low note....

Care to divulge what your favorite change-ups are? Kaelah seems to prefer the one where you rotate the hand around as if to throw it off the thumb. It ends up with a curve-ball-type spin.

 

[nanotech14]

AW
Really glad someone else made the post you did!!!!!! Can't agree enough with what you have stated.
I would get down on my knees and beg anyone learning a change up to NOT LEARN A FLIP CHANGE UP....right up there in that category would be a KNUCKLE CHANGE UP. Both these pitches are "cute" at the 10U level but really are not effective as you move up the ladder. I try not to get emotional about pitching related things......the flip and knuckle change up get me emotional.

This probably qualifies as a rant.....man, I've got to do a few more posts so I don't go out of the year on a low note....

That's. What Hillhouse teaches. The flip change and it must be pretty effective to be thrown against the best men fastpitch in the world. Not trying to start something, but it could just be in how others teach it.

 

[Rick Pauly]

Well I know Bill is a very good pitcher. Guess Bill would have to verify what spin he gets on his change up.....backspin or drop spin. I've never seen him pitch.....but somehow I just can't fathom him throwing a "cutsie" flip change and getting away with it in the men's game. If he does then he is definitely the exception, just as Mowatt was the exception in the women's game.

Sometimes there are different definitions used for the flip change.....the one I would use to describe it is: a release where the knuckles are facing the catcher at release and the pitcher performs a flip of the wrist creating backspin on the ball. Curious if there is a significantly different description out there??????

By far and away, a change up with drop or dropcurve type spin is the most predominant at the elite levels.

That's. What Hillhouse teaches. The flip change and it must be pretty effective to be thrown against the best men fastpitch in the world. Not trying to start something, but it could just be in how others teach it.

 

[nanotech14]

Well I know Bill is a very good pitcher. Guess Bill would have to verify what spin he gets on his change up.....backspin or drop spin. I've never seen him pitch.....but somehow I just can't fathom him throwing a "cutsie" flip change and getting away with it in the men's game. If he does then he is definitely the exception, just as Mowatt was the exception in the women's game.

Sometimes there are different definitions used for the flip change.....the one I would use to describe it is: a release where the knuckles are facing the catcher at release and the pitcher performs a flip of the wrist creating backspin on the ball. Curious if there is a significantly different description out there??????

By far and away, a change up with drop or dropcurve type spin is the most predominant at the elite levels.

Yes the knuckles are facing the catcher, when my dd throws it, it will curve and drop to the outside on a right handed batter. It is done by flipping the wrist creating backspin on the ball. I don't know how often he threw it, maybe never, I don't know. But with all due respect Rick, you present a lot of good advice and I respect that very much, but that doesn't mean that you know everything. It could be being thrown more often then you think.

 

[Dave619]

Well I know Bill is a very good pitcher. Guess Bill would have to verify what spin he gets on his change up.....backspin or drop spin. I've never seen him pitch.....but somehow I just can't fathom him throwing a "cutsie" flip change and getting away with it in the men's game. If he does then he is definitely the exception, just as Mowatt was the exception in the women's game.

Sometimes there are different definitions used for the flip change.....the one I would use to describe it is: a release where the knuckles are facing the catcher at release and the pitcher performs a flip of the wrist creating backspin on the ball. Curious if there is a significantly different description out there??????

By far and away, a change up with drop or dropcurve type spin is the most predominant at the elite levels.

Coach Pauly, in reading older post on this forum it seems that people do define the flip change differently....I would say my DD releases the ball with her hand on the side of the ball instead of with the knuckles facing the catcher and she does not flip her wrist. Maybe we need to call it something else besides flip change??

I would say when thrown correctly it does mimic the action of a drop or drop curve. What type of grip, etc. do you use to get the action you are describing? Thanks!

 

[Rick Pauly]

Well, I did qualify it as a rant....
If your DD's change is dropping and curving she is probably not getting what I would term backspin.......if her C/U is performing the way you described then I would be totally in favor of it. The flips I see and hate spin straight backwards....usually flip up and hang in the homerun zone and the dropping action is totally because of lack of speed and they fall straight down. We could be describing two different pitches/spins.

Yes the knuckles are facing the catcher, when my dd throws it, it will curve and drop to the outside on a right handed batter. It is done by flipping the wrist creating backspin on the ball. I don't know how often he threw it, maybe never, I don't know. But with all due respect Rick, you present a lot of good advice and I respect that very much, but that doesn't mean that you know everything. It could be being thrown more often then you think.