Problems with the change-up!

[Dave619]

Yes the knuckles are facing the catcher, when my dd throws it, it will curve and drop to the outside on a right handed batter. It is done by flipping the wrist creating backspin on the ball. I don't know how often he threw it, maybe never, I don't know. But with all due respect Rick, you present a lot of good advice and I respect that very much, but that doesn't mean that you know everything. It could be being thrown more often then you think.

Just to clarify what I wrote earlier...I said my DD does not flip her wrist...I would say she rolls her wrist over the ball. So at the end her knuckles do face the catcher.

 

[JJsqueeze]

Well I know Bill is a very good pitcher. Guess Bill would have to verify what spin he gets on his change up.....backspin or drop spin. I've never seen him pitch.....but somehow I just can't fathom him throwing a "cutsie" flip change and getting away with it in the men's game. If he does then he is definitely the exception, just as Mowatt was the exception in the women's game.

Sometimes there are different definitions used for the flip change.....the one I would use to describe it is: a release where the knuckles are facing the catcher at release and the pitcher performs a flip of the wrist creating backspin on the ball. Curious if there is a significantly different description out there??????

By far and away, a change up with drop or dropcurve type spin is the most predominant at the elite levels.

I am confused about the definition, I thought anything that got the back of the hand towards the catcher during the pitch was a flip change. My DD throws one and it comes out with reverse bullet spin sometimes drop curve spin and I thought that was a "Flip" change. But it has a much flatter arc than the total backspin flip I see other girls throw. It is also faster than other changeups they throw. My DDs is about 15-20 percent slower than her FB, so her FB is 44-47 and the changeup is 36-38 at 11 yrs old. I thought it was problematic until I saw her use it in a game and it worked so well I decided to leave it alone for a while, I don't think I have video of it so I don't truly know how she releases it these days. It looks a lot better now than when we were really trying to get backspin and she doesn't have the fliers anymore. I can tell you that from the bucket it fools me until about halfway. All along I have been calling it a flip change.

 

[nanotech14]

Okay, I'm going to try to describe it the best I can, so bare with me. When my dd throws it her hand is tilted, with her pinky, ring finger up, thump down but facing more to third baseline. So it would be not a true backspin, I picture more of a backspin, like a pitcher would throw in slow pitch. That's why I feel it cuts away and down on a right handed batter. Sorry if it doesn't make sense. I tried okay if she doesn't get her hand in the right position, it has hump in it and becomes that danger pitch, you know the one where the batter hands the catcher the bat and says can you hold this. I will be right back.

 

[JJsqueeze]

I love modern technology and being off from work...
I just grabbed some video and her hand is simply outside the ball instead of inside it at release, the back of the hand does not face the catcher, it faces third base.

I have no idea if this is good/bad/ugly....its just that we ignored the changeup for a while and this sort of developed and works so I aint fixin it until I know its broken.

 

[Dave619]

I am confused about the definition, I thought anything that got the back of the hand towards the catcher during the pitch was a flip change. My DD throws one and it comes out with reverse bullet spin sometimes drop curve spin and I thought that was a "Flip" change. But it has a much flatter arc than the total backspin flip I see other girls throw. It is also faster than other changeups they throw. My DDs is about 15-20 percent slower than her FB, so her FB is 44-47 and the changeup is 36-38 at 11 yrs old. I thought it was problematic until I saw her use it in a game and it worked so well I decided to leave it alone for a while, I don't think I have video of it so I don't truly know how she releases it these days. It looks a lot better now than when we were really trying to get backspin and she doesn't have the fliers anymore. I can tell you that from the bucket it fools me until about halfway. All along I have been calling it a flip change.

Thanks JJ...yes that sounds the same as what I am trying to describe...sometimes it comes out will drop (not because of spin, but more gravity) and sometime when she doesn't get 3 to 9 spin it will look like what nanotech describes and it will have more of a drop curve path. I'm going to try to find a video. Thanks!

 

[JJsqueeze]

Okay, I'm going to try to describe it the best I can, so bare with me. When my dd throws it her hand is tilted, with her pinky, ring finger up, thump down but facing more to third baseline. So it would be not a true backspin, I picture more of a backspin, like a pitcher would throw in slow pitch. That's why I feel it cuts away and down on a right handed batter. Sorry if it doesn't make sense. I tried okay if she doesn't get her hand in the right position, it has hump in it and becomes that danger pitch, you know the one where the batter hands the catcher the bat and says can you hold this. I will be right back.

So does the ball roll off the pinky with this release? I saw some Japanese video of a pitcher throwing a curveball this way, that would explain the spin.

 

[crystlemc]

The way Hillhouse has my DD throwing her change is a flip, but as she flips, her hand also "flops" the pinky over toward the opposite shoulder so her follow through would have the back of her hand toward her body, fingers toward the shoulder. I hope this makes sense. It would have 1-7 or 2-8 backward spin. I hope I am explaining this right.

 

[MK37]

Last week I watched Bill's video The Pitches paying close attention to the portion on the change up. He described the release as flip and turn the hand then finishing at the opposite shoulder. He said you don't want true backspin because it will float. With practice, the pitcher can get some downward side spin where it cuts down and away from the batter.

My DD throws her change much like JJsqueeze describes. She throws her drop/fastball at 45mph and her change comes in at 35mph. She struggled with the change up until we found the Best Change Up for Small Hands thread.

 

[Rocketech1]

PP, my DD throws a flip change that has approximately 10-4 side spin and is a very effective pitch. She is 12u and has been working on it is since she was 8. She throws it in the mid 30's and fB is high 40's. The action of the pitch is down and away. She can throw it hard but since the back of her hand rotates early before release she actually is pulling the ball off the last two fingers as her hand starts to come across into release. She always works on keeping it low in the zone, around the knees as it works away from a right handed batter.

The problem I see with other changeups types at this age is the pitchers throw it too fast or slow down the arm circle so it's effectively a slower fastball and there is not the 25 percent reduction of speed which I think is critical to have the c/u be most effective.

Maybe as she moves up to 14u and beyond it might become less effective? Time will tell. I'm curious to see if she can continue to throw it hard when the speed of her other pitches increase?

Btw, she need to practice it a lot and she will get proficient with it. My DD first was taught the flip at 7 1/2 and primarily had backspin and was very inconsistent but as she got faster over the years she gets more side spin on it and can throw it well, regularly and is her signature pitch. She uses it at least once a batter and has even thrown it three straight times to strike someone out (was a shout out to another thread about not throwing the same pitch twice!).

 

[nanotech14]

The way Hillhouse has my DD throwing her change is a flip, but as she flips, her hand also "flops" the pinky over toward the opposite shoulder so her follow through would have the back of her hand toward her body, fingers toward the shoulder. I hope this makes sense. It would have 1-7 or 2-8 backward spin. I hope I am explaining this right.

Yes my dd too. I just couldn't come up with the right words.