Please tell me I haven't lost my mind...

[dschreib]

I like to think I have a pretty good grasp on all the rules...even most of the obscure ones. This one seemed pretty simple to me, but I'm willing to admit if I'm wrong.

Runner on first. I give steal sign. Batter hits fly ball to right. Runner stops, turns, and heads back to first. Ball is caught, runner reaches first before the throw...but overruns the bag. Gets back to the bag untouched, but the umpire calls her out. At this point, my pitcher had been squeezed for 4 innings, and I come completely unglued, sprinting across the field from the 3B box, asking why she's out. His response, "She can't overrun the bag. It was a force out." I argue that the force out was negated when she beat the throw back to the bag, and it's no different than tagging and going to second. I finally turn to the PU and ask him for some help. They discuss it and end up calling her safe "but not for what you said", according to the other ump. After the inning, I asked the PU for an explanation as to why they ruled her safe, and he comes with, "the 1B came off the bag"--which she didn't. Have I completely lost my mind, or were they just trying to cover up a really bad call with a lame excuse?

 

[BadMonkeys]

I was hoping after reading the thread title I could say you were bats**t crazy. I would have thought like you that she should have been safe. Even if we are wrong you haven't lost your mind.

 

[dschreib]

And...in case anyone is wondering...she touched the bag prior to overrunning it.

 

[BretMan]

There can never be any force outs at any base when the batter is put out before safely reaching first base (for example, on a caught fly ball). So, no, this wasn't force out.

 

[Umpire]

Yes. You have lost your mind. Presumably you are an adult male who came unglued at an amateur girls softball game. You ran across the field, which is ridiculous. You asked a non-calling umpire to overrule a call pretty much. That's not acceptable. You then continued the lunacy by going and speaking to the non-calling umpire after the inning was over. So, in the very least, you are wrong in three aspects. To add to all of that that you believe you can have a force out on a caught fly ball makes things worse.

How about teaching your runner to slide next time? Often, the prevention or solution to our problems is in our own hands if we would only open our eyes and look.

 

[dschreib]

Yes. You have lost your mind. Presumably you are an adult male who came unglued at an amateur girls softball game. You ran across the field, which is ridiculous. You asked a non-calling umpire to overrule a call pretty much. That's not acceptable. You then continued the lunacy by going and speaking to the non-calling umpire after the inning was over. So, in the very least, you are wrong in three aspects. To add to all of that that you believe you can have a force out on a caught fly ball makes things worse.

How about teaching your runner to slide next time? Often, the prevention or solution to our problems is in our own hands if we would only open our eyes and look.

Most of that I will agree with. It wasn't one of my finer moments. I used "force" in the post because that's the terminology he was using--my mistake. On the field I went the route of "she retouched her base after a caught ball", but that didn't seem to be getting me anywhere. My discussion with the non-calling ump after the inning was simply as I was picking up the bat on the way back to the 1B dugout--pretty discrete. Did I lose my cool? Yep, and I'll take the heat for that. My question...respectfully submitted...is how do you handle a situation where an umpire has the ruling completely wrong, short of playing the game under protest? Are the only options 1) accept the incorrect ruling, or 2) file a protest? Should/could I have asked the ruling ump to discuss it with the non-ruling ump, or is that option off the table altogether?

 

[MTR]

Runner on first. I give steal sign. Batter hits fly ball to right. Runner stops, turns, and heads back to first. Ball is caught, runner reaches first before the throw...but overruns the bag. Gets back to the bag untouched, (assuming you mean the runner was not tagged, not that the bag was not tagged by the defense) but the umpire calls her out. At this point, my pitcher had been squeezed for 4 innings, and I come completely unglued, sprinting across the field from the 3B box,

Well, the rest would probably go unheard since you would very likely be ejected before you reach the umpire

asking why she's out. His response, "She can't overrun the bag. It was a force out."

This is where your assistant, now head coach, needed to pull out the "P" word and stop the discussion.

I argue that the force out was negated when she beat the throw back to the bag, and it's no different than tagging and going to second.

All parties in this part need to read the rule book. At no time during this play is it possible for there to be a force out. The umpire has two rules he may have misinterpreted. One would be the going back past a base reinstates a force. Again, since there is no force, this would not apply. The second possibility is the point that a runner can not retreat behind a base to get a running start. Since there was no subsequent attempt to advance, obviously there is nothing to which there would be a running start. Umpire kicked this call.

I finally turn to the PU and ask him for some help. They discuss it and end up calling her safe "but not for what you said", according to the other ump.

Plate umpire should not have talked to you. He should have directed you back to the umpire who made the call.

After the inning, I asked the PU for an explanation as to why they ruled her safe, and he comes with, "the 1B came off the bag"--which she didn't. Have I completely lost my mind, or were they just trying to cover up a really bad call with a lame excuse?

Correct adjustment, but more bad reasoning unless in his mind, the throw would have beaten the runner back to the base and the defender pulled.

Apparently, no one knew the rules so you and the BU are equally complicit.

 

[CycloneSoftball22]

How about teaching your runner to slide next time? Often, the prevention or solution to our problems is in our own hands if we would only open our eyes and look.

Whether or not the player did/did not slide has nothing to do with whether or not the ump blew the call

 

[dschreib]

OK--I'm 42...so I don't really "sprint". It was more of a jog...or maybe a gait...which probably just seemed like a sprint in my mind. We've all established (myself included) that I lost my cool and was wrong for doing that. You guys don't know me from Adam, so you don't realize that I'm usually the one telling everybody else to remain calm. My conversations with umpires are usually very low-key, and even in this case I wasn't over there screaming at the ump. I know, I know...you're probably thinking, "Yeah, right", but it is what it is. We all (probably) have our moments of weakness. I heard of an umpire telling a coach last night that he (the coach) was what's wrong with America today.
In an effort to keep from writing a novel, I may have left some items out. The PU didn't talk to me during the argument. He directed me back to the coaching box (I went quietly), they carried on the conversation on their own, and came back with the new ruling. I shouldn't have talked to him directly. I get that, but I obviously wasn't in the best frame of mind.

 

[Umpire]

Whether or not the player did/did not slide has nothing to do with whether or not the ump blew the call

Correct. But we live in a pass-the-buck and I-Know-I-Am-But-So-Are-You society. My point was that this could have been a teaching experience for the player. I'm guessing that it was overlooked. The player is bound to do the same thing again. People need to spend more time coaching the players than the umpires.

In no way was I excusing what happened with the umpire, but there is always more than one perspective.