Palm position from 9 to 6???

[JJsqueeze]

Getting palm to the sky is getting fully loaded before you immediately start internally rotating into release. In essence, the hand and arm are fully externally rotated to palm to the sky and then immediately start the arm whip in which the arm rotates into release. I'm convinced that the more open the hand is at 9:00 the more spin and velocity will be added to the pitch.

Do this experiment. Hold out your arm so the palm is up and rotate it fast so the palm is down. Now do the same drill but have your palm facing the wall and than rotate the hand fast so it's now down. Which drill creates a rotation that engages both the shoulder and elbow rotation simultaneously? If you said the 1st one you would be correct. BM argues this is the fastest action in the body. Why not use it to its maximum effect.

agreed, but why is palm to sky at 9 such a critical point? Why not palm to sky at 8? Or 7:30? As you said, the I/R of the forearm is really, really fast so why do you need to be loaded so early? I think there is wiggle room on the timing of the full load as long as they can load fully.

Watch for it in all the slo mo clips. You'll see what I am talking about. Many great pitchers have a little mini I/R move around 10 or 9 that takes the hand more to third, Then they E/R to palm up more at 8 ish, then they fire.

 

[Rocketech1]

As was posted, the hand position is determined by the type of pitch. Not many elite pitchers throwing fastballs. Look for narrated clips that let you know the pitch.

A drop ball is a fastball and most pitchers throw a drop ball, including elite pitchers.

 

[Doug Romrell]

OILF, What is a fastball to you? Tell us in terms of grip, release, ball rotation, and such.

 

[JJsqueeze]

Personally I am more interested in the hand position discussion Doug. I'd like to hear what you think on this topic. Talking FB/DB with OILF is not going to be fruitful.

 

[Doug Romrell]

Oh, I know.

I'm definitely no expert, so my take won't carry much weight. However, two of the three pitchers I'm working with are throwing a riseball (backward-rotating ball), but not as fast as they will need to for it to be an effective pitch (IMO). And, it's not 6/12, but I'm not sure I want them to have a perfect 6/12 spin. I like the up and away spin (even though it's not really breaking up from original trajectory).

What I'm concluding (and I may be wrong) is that good arm whip is at least partially due to the palm being somewhat facing upward as it passes 9:00 and a bit beyond. I also believe good arm whip is important for the fastball/drop of the boardmember flavor and for a riseball. The only difference I see between these two pitches with the arm/hand is the grip and release. I think the arm-whip palm-up approach is ideal for peeling under the ball for the riseball spin, yet I think it is also ideal for the fastball-drop release where the middle and index fingers push the ball somewhat on an angle as the hand flips around the hip due to I/R and brushing the hip. Again, I'm no expert at all, but I don't think there's much, if any, difference in hand orientation from 9:00 to just prior to release when we're talking about fastball/dropball and the riseball.

Boy, that was poorly worded!

 

[Ken B]

Boy, that was poorly worded!

I thought it was very well stated.

 

[Ken B]

agreed, but why is palm to sky at 9 such a critical point?

I think it's difficult to debate/speculate if palm up at 9 o'clock is an absolute. For me it's a starting place when working with pitchers on improving the feel for whip. When I work with kids, I encourage them to lead with the back of the hand from start to release. As you watch various pitchers (throwing various pitches) in slow motion, you see the palm facing all kinds of directions at various points around the circle. (Today I even saw a video of a guy with his palm facing F4 at 12 o'clock!) The one thing you'll see in almost every video and in almost every pitch is that the palm is facing somewhere between 3B and palm up going into whip.

I prefer the cue of palm up to encourage as much load/coil as possible. For me it might be a little like swinging a bat with half coil. Why not get to full coil/stretch/load?

 

[Doug Romrell]

The one thing you'll see in almost every video and in almost every pitch is that the palm is facing somewhere between 3B and palm up going into whip.

I prefer the cue of palm up to encourage as much load/coil as possible. For me it might be a little like swinging a bat with half coil. Why not get to full coil/stretch/load?

I think this is a GREAT way to think about it!

 

[Ken B]

"Ball lag" may be a better description. Think about swinging a bat with less lag. To get the most out of throwing/whipping the barrel, you need bat lag. Ball to 3B puts the ball in-line with the forearm and there is less stored energy. Palm up allows the ball to trail, or lag more going into whip.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

"Ball lag" may be a better description. Think about swinging a bat with less lag. To get the most out of throwing/whipping the barrel, you need bat lag. Ball to 3B puts the ball in-line with the forearm and there is less stored energy. Palm up allows the ball to trail, or lag more going into whip.

Good analogy IMO. Makes me wonder if you have been reading at BBD where this conversation has been taking place.

'Ball lag' is a better description .... perhaps better still would be 'top hand/wrist (i.e., throwing hand) lag'.

In hitting the ‘lag’ of the top hand wrist (which is a ‘loading’) is NOT due to actively creating wrist flexion & extension with the muscles in the wrists & forearm, but in reducing the tension level in the wrist low enough to allow for 'extension' and 'radial deviation' to take place … and hence the top hand wrist 'becomes' lagged/loaded.

As in hitting … ‘lag’ in the top hand wrist is not created at launch (swing initiation). Lag is created ‘after launch’ and ‘before contact’.

Further the top hand wrist 'becomes' lagged, and does not actively use the muscles in the forearm to create the lag.

The analogy to the top hand ‘being’ rotated towards a palm-up orientation at 9pm is somewhat similar IMO. The hand/wrist is ‘being’ loaded for an ‘unload’. Likewise, the loading takes place NOT due to active flexion and extension, but due to lessening tension levels in the wrist that allow the ‘lag’/’loading’ to take place.