Palm Change vs Back Handed Change

[GOINGDEEP]

GD - agreed if it doesn't move very much, but if it does move then how come pros had/have such a hard time hitting Hough, Niekro, Wakefield etc when they knew it was coming every pitch? Or is it just that a SB knuckler, even a good one (i.e., < 1 revolution), doesn't have enough time/distance to move much?

Haha, yes your examples were some of the best 'knucklers'. JMO, a softball is too large to throw a TRUE knuckle ball. And I think the distance is too short for the pitch to do it's job. Remember a knuckle ball is thrown to MINIMIZE revolutions of the ball, just the opposite of what we preach on her. That's why it's the most difficult pitch to catch in baseball, you never know where the heck it's going.

What I was referring to in my original post was the young lady using a knuckle change. If thats the only time she tucks her fingers it's not going to be effective because the batters will know its coming. If that is what she wants to throw for a change I would suggest also a knuckle grip rise, just to keep batters guessing.

 

[tnacntv]

My daughter is 14 also. She throws both change ups with great success. Her PC wanted her to have two CU's. She said she would always have a workable CU if she mastered two. If one is not working the other does. Before a game, in her warm ups, she warms up both and the one she is consistent with is the one she'll go to. Its her decision which to throw when one is called. Any coach shouldn't care which she uses as long as it works. A good CU is something college coaches will look for so if she has two, all the better! So in essence, maybe this high school coach is inadvertently doing your daughter a favor. Run with it! It didn't take my daughter very long to learn the palm CU. Her PC calls it the 'horseshoe'. She was throwing it successfully within 3 or 4 weeks. Its an easy pitch to learn and another for her to ad to her repertoire!

 

[Ken Krause]

My question is whether the pitching coach has seen your daughter throw yet? If she has, maybe she doesn't feel it's hidden well enough, or that it takes off enough speed. I usually look for a 15 mph difference between the fastest pitch and the change. I haven't really seen that kind of differential with a palm change, but perhaps your daughter has it.

If she hasn't seen your daughter throw yet, that's a different story. Now she's just being stubborn, or authoritarian. Of course, it doesn't matter, really. Sluggers is right. It's their sandbox.

 

[jacketsfan]

My DD used to throw what you guys are calling the palm change when she was younger. She learned the backhand around age 14/15. It was actually sort of hard for her to learn, and we still work hard at it each pitching session. I never thought it would work in a game, because I think she shows it too much, but it is deadly to batters.

 

[ifubuildit]

Good topic.

Actually if you really think about it any pitch other than a rise ball can be thrown as a change up or off speed pitch. Just add more fingers to the ball or push it deeper into the hand to slow it down.

There is another change up I teach which I like better than both these change ups. Its the Circle change. My reason it that it will move on 2 planes instead of one. Makes it harder for the batter to adjust to if the pitcher makes a mistake and gives it away with her motion. When they throw it right its deadly because it will cut the outside corner of the plate going away from the RH batter.

The back hand change is the most difficult to control IMO based on what I see with my students. It too can move on 2 planes if taught correctly. It just seems like getting the timing of the release is a bit harder than the circle or the Palm. I call the Palm the handshake change. Release it like your shaking hands.

The problem with the circle change is the grip. The bigger the hands the better. Of course you could make that same statement about any pitch and pitchers hands.

Dana.

 

[mrslug01]

My DD has throw the palm cahnge for years (she's at U14) and when younger I liked it alot. But over the past year, I don't like the speed differential as a change up. She throws her fastball/drop 53-55. The palm change comes in at 43 much of the time. It's effective more as an off speed than a true change. She gets alot of weak grounders or if it comes in low enough swings and misses. She was also taught a knuckle change holding the ball with the thumb and pinkie and tucking all the middle knuckles (she has huge hands thankfully). When this one is one it's a great change for her. Comes in 38-39 and her arm speed is great so it looks like it's coming in fast.

 

[SouthernGirls]

12yo DD working on backhand change. It is amazingly slower than her fastball and it is deadly to batters at this age. She has had to work really hard on it though. Hard pitch to learn but the rewards have been great. Pitching coach now has her working on the turn over drop. Another hard pitch to learn just hope the payoff is as good. But remember the success to any change up is to make all pitches look the same on the mound. Keep the ball hid and tucked.

 

[mrslug01]

Well my kid has the fingers lol. She's 5'7 and I'm hoping for another inch

Dana and mrslug, good posts. Yes, it is fair to mention that the today (not so much in my day) change ups may have to be "changed" or a few different added as you get older. Look at college pitchers whose changes come in at 50 mph.

In some cases you throw another pitch with a knuckle tucked under or an old school drop off the front finger for a 'change up' or let's say off-speed.

I don't see the addition of fingers making much difference because many girls (not the elite 6 footers) like to already have three on there and those with smaller hands, all four on "speed pitches" (no matter what the 'books' say, their hands just can't do it, and they are done growing). And the knuckles, same thing, you have to have long fingers, so if I was a recruiter, I would look for long fingers and height. That's just the reality.