Oregon - Tennessee ball thrown at runner

[SoftSocDad]

I have absolutely no doubt that the Oregon SS deliberately threw at the runner and thought that even before I saw replays. I was hoping like crazy that when time was called and the umpires got together that they would eject the SS.

For all of you that want the runner to "veer off" or "slide" or do something else to "clear the throwing lane"...

How is the runner supposed to know which way the fielder is going to move to throw? What if the runner sees the SS come across the bag at second and veers off the same way the SS goes to make the relay throw to first and is hit by the throw? THAT is a legitimate interference call. The runners job is to run from first to second base. She can't disappear once she is put out. The fielder should anticipate that the runner is going to continue running from one base to the next and work around the runners path to get a throwing lane. The Oregon SS could have easily taken another step and had a clear throwing lane to first. She intentionally used a sidearm motion and aimed at the runner that was very close to her.

As far as a "technique"...yes running directly from one base to the next has been taught as a technique for many years.....

Do you really think the fielder was aiming at the runner and not aiming at her target over at 1B in an effort to turn the double play? Prior to this play, what would have given her any indication that trick would work in an actual game?

People may have differing views on that play, but what is the difference between a running sliding three feet in front of the bag or behind the bag to break up a double play???? Same chance for injury in my mind. I view it like this R1 was out due to the force, thus no longer a active participant in the play, it is in my mind the baserunners responsibility to get out of the way of the throw. You see this all the time in baseball and no one questions it. Player taken out hard at second to break up the DP, SS throwing for his target, which is first base, just becasue the baserunner who has been put out is in the way does not mean the player does not have a right to make an attempted throw. Its part of the game. Does everyone really think the R1 who in my mind was taken out of the play went out of her way to get in the line of that throw. Maybe that is why she wears a face mask. All good in my book two teams playing hard trying to win. Nothing dirty, just part of the game.

This whole thing with different unwritten rules in the baseball world applying to the softball world being said that it is inappropriate in my mind is just chatter. You as a coach steal my signs or call out pitch location in baseball you take one to the ribs. In softball the mind set is you can't hit a girl....Well heck Oregon showed the unwritten rules do apply to softball just as they do in baseball. Call it wrong call it correct. Things equal out in the end. All this talk about the girl that threw the ball and no talk about the runner taking a path that directly obstructed the SS ability to make a throw to 1st is just chatter. She knew what she was doing and the SS did the right thing attempt to complete her play.

If you don't want your signs stolen, then get smarter players and a smarter coach.

Rooster I agree on the unwritten rules. Batters stand on the chalk in softball and take away the inside corner (However, the umps seem to make up for it by giving them six inches on the outside) With the new "you don't have to get out of the way rule" they're standing up there to get hit. The only way to stop some stuff is to pop somebody. In baseball the unwritten rule is, you're gettin nailed if you don't get off the plate. I know they're girls but if they wanna play like that you can't back down. I've seen at least 10 girls get hit on the arm when the pitch was over the plate in the last couple weeks, as a coach i wouldn't take that crap. If you wanna get hit we'll hit you

Maybe you should look into getting a new username. I think 'init4myego' is available.

 

[Rooster98]

Do you really think the fielder was aiming at the runner and not aiming at her target over at 1B in an effort to turn the double play? Prior to this play, what would have given her any indication that trick would work in an actual game?




If you don't want your signs stolen, then get smarter players and a smarter coach.



Maybe you should look into getting a new username. I think 'init4myego' is available.

Or have your girl take one to the ribs....

For me it is not the stealing of the signs from the coach, which is not me who calls pitches, its location being yelled out by a scorekeeper outside the fence and the ump should address the issue of a non coach outside the fences telling a batter where a catcher sets up. It does not good for the batter to hear outside being yelled when the pitch is on the way and the catcher sets up at the appropriate time, not tipping her location. Distracting their own batters yest.....Bush yes

 

[SoftSocDad]

I see is that the umpires are not giving the outside 6 inches. I will not change my game plan because a girl is too close to the plate. That is the pitchers job to move her off. If she gets hit, she gets hit. Is it the pitchers fault the batter has taken up space that belongs to the pitcher. Girls are getting hit by strikes and getting awarded first base. They should be called a strike when no attempt to move out of the way is made by the batter. This is a coached approach. Ride the inside make her throw outside and take the walk or get on base with being hit. Borderline bush league in my book. But it is part of the game now.

If you see that the umpire isn't giving the outside of the plate, why wouldn't you adjust your game plan accordingly?

Or have your girl take one to the ribs....

For me it is not the stealing of the signs from the coach, which is not me who calls pitches, its location being yelled out by a scorekeeper outside the fence and the ump should address the issue of a non coach outside the fences telling a batter where a catcher sets up. It does not good for the batter to hear outside being yelled when the pitch is on the way and the catcher sets up at the appropriate time, not tipping her location. Distracting their own batters yest.....Bush yes

Coaches have to be inside the dugout, so if the scorekeeper is attempting to coach, then you have to notify the umpire to take control.

As to directing little girls to deliberately throw at one another, you will get no support from any right-minded person on that. It's a game, for crying out loud.

 

[Rooster98]

You do adjust your game plan....continue to work the inside till they move or get hit.

I am well aware the coaches have to be in the dugout....Scorekeeper was addressed by myself and the umpire, did not change he just moved. I did not hit a girl because a guy is stupid and thinks yelling location after delivery is helping. I was making a point if it happened in baseball the player would of gotten hit. Not so in softball because they are "girls"....

As you prove the point, unwritten rules that are acceptable in baseball are not in softball. What is the difference between Sally and Sam other than body parts, its a game. The game has unwritten rules, if you played any ball what so ever you would know this. In baseball you hit the pitcher you are darn sure the next batter that the pitcher see's is plunking that person. Just because one is named Sally or Sam does not change the unwritten rules. The game should be played with respect. No one wants to hurt anyone, if both teams play a clean game no worries, but at times you have to protect your players and that means sending a message, you do, it will get done back to you!!!! I don't care if it is Sally or Sam.

 

[Sweet Lou]

I didn't play a lot of middle IF in BB but when I did I was taught the same thing as the Oregon SS did. Force the runner to get out of the way. As a runner I was taught (or learned quickly) you get down or peel off to the IF side if an SS is coming across (or to the OF side with the 2B coming the other way) on the DP like that if you don't want to get hit with the ball.

All-in-all though I think too much is being made of this one play.

 

[Greenmonsters]

I have absolutely no doubt that the Oregon SS deliberately threw at the runner and thought that even before I saw replays. I was hoping like crazy that when time was called and the umpires got together that they would eject the SS.

For all of you that want the runner to "veer off" or "slide" or do something else to "clear the throwing lane"...

How is the runner supposed to know which way the fielder is going to move to throw? What if the runner sees the SS come across the bag at second and veers off the same way the SS goes to make the relay throw to first and is hit by the throw? THAT is a legitimate interference call. The runners job is to run from first to second base. She can't disappear once she is put out. The fielder should anticipate that the runner is going to continue running from one base to the next and work around the runners path to get a throwing lane. The Oregon SS could have easily taken another step and had a clear throwing lane to first. She intentionally used a sidearm motion and aimed at the runner that was very close to her.

As far as a "technique"...yes running directly from one base to the next has been taught as a technique for many years.....

In this and similar cases, if you really wanted to throw at a runner to hit them, you don't throw at the head because it's too easy to move out of the way. The throw would've been aimed mid chest - somewhere between the belt and the sternum - if the intent was to hit the runner rather than force them to vacate the throwing lane. And don't kid yourself, the runner wasn't stupid, if she had been closer to the bag she would've slid in hard with metal spikes trying to take out the SS.

What I think I'm seeing is that SB at the D1 level is being played more like high-level BB in many ways. IMO, the existing SB rule sets never anticipated that and the rules are being stretched in order to gain a competitive advantage. When the rule sets don't suffice, its time to re-write or definitively clarify them or risk the abuses we're seeing. With the new HBP rule with the batter not having to move, what other choice is there for the P to try to earn the inside corner to be able to pitch to outside corner effectively other than hit a batter or two?

 

[MTR]

I didn't play a lot of middle IF in BB but when I did I was taught the same thing as the Oregon SS did. Force the runner to get out of the way. As a runner I was taught (or learned quickly) you get down or peel off to the IF side if an SS is coming across (or to the OF side with the 2B coming the other way) on the DP like that if you don't want to get hit with the ball.

All-in-all though I think too much is being made of this one play.

Most of you are so far off the point, I doubt you can see the trees from the forest.

The runner has every right to try and advance to the next base. The defense making a play to put her out does not alleviate that task. In many cases, the umpire hasn't even announced his/her ruling at the point of the runner being hit with the ball. It is the runner's job to reach that base, period. That part is beyond refute.

The fielder's job is to get as many outs as possible. That fielder has zero restrictions as to where s/he may throw the ball. Common sense would tell any semi-intelligent person that the most likely way to succeed is to use the path of lease resistence. IOW, an open throwing lane. Again, there is no argument to be made on this point.

If the fielder chooses to attempt to throw the ball in an area where it will possibly be stopped or deflected and s/he will not achieve the goal, then it is a DMF. No out, if for not other reason, for just being stupid.

You know, there is a reason that it is NOT interference if the catcher hits a batter in the box with a thrown ball as long has that batter hasn't committed an act of INT, because the box is where she is supposed to be. There is also a reason a BR is not out for INT when hit with a thrown ball to a defender at 1B while in the 3' lane, because that lane is where the BR is supposed to be. Why would anyone expect it to be different on another part of the field?

Ajaywill explained quite nicely why a runner shouldn't turn out. It is not only sensible, but accurate.

BTW, as an umpire, when I hear a player or coach even suggest the intentional drilling of a player, they get three warnings:

1. You will be ejected if it happens, intentional or not;
2. I will offer a detail report of your stated intention to the police, sanctioning body and insurance company when asked what happen;
3. I will take as many days off from work that it takes to tesitify in any criminal or civil suits which come about due to any injury remotely related to their comment.

And occasionally, if appropriate, a 4th, I will call your sponsor and ask if that intentionally injuring people playing a game is their companies idea of good marketing?

 

[init4thegirls]

.
Maybe you should look into getting a new username. I think 'init4myego' is available.

I coach 10-u so we don't have these issues, I'm talking on the college level. If I were in it for my ego I would have quit five minutes into the first practice.

If a coach tells his team to intentionally do this kind of thing they have decided to play big girl ball. If coach A is telling his team to do something that's not illegal but gives them an advantage, what should coach B do? Let them have it? Of course not, you straighten it out with unwritten rules. Maybe I see it this way cause I'm a guy and this stuff got started around 13yo.

 

[CycloneSoftball22]

Most of you are so far off the point, I doubt you can see the trees from the forest.

The runner has every right to try and advance to the next base. The defense making a play to put her out does not alleviate that task. In many cases, the umpire hasn't even announced his/her ruling at the point of the runner being hit with the ball. It is the runner's job to reach that base, period. That part is beyond refute.

The fielder's job is to get as many outs as possible. That fielder has zero restrictions as to where s/he may throw the ball. Common sense would tell any semi-intelligent person that the most likely way to succeed is to use the path of lease resistence. IOW, an open throwing lane. Again, there is no argument to be made on this point.

If the fielder chooses to attempt to throw the ball in an area where it will possibly be stopped or deflected and s/he will not achieve the goal, then it is a DMF. No out, if for not other reason, for just being stupid.

You know, there is a reason that it is NOT interference if the catcher hits a batter in the box with a thrown ball as long has that batter hasn't committed an act of INT, because the box is where she is supposed to be. There is also a reason a BR is not out for INT when hit with a thrown ball to a defender at 1B while in the 3' lane, because that lane is where the BR is supposed to be. Why would anyone expect it to be different on another part of the field?

Ajaywill explained quite nicely why a runner shouldn't turn out. It is not only sensible, but accurate.

BTW, as an umpire, when I hear a player or coach even suggest the intentional drilling of a player, they get three warnings:

1. You will be ejected if it happens, intentional or not;
2. I will offer a detail report of your stated intention to the police, sanctioning body and insurance company when asked what happen;
3. I will take as many days off from work that it takes to tesitify in any criminal or civil suits which come about due to any injury remotely related to their comment.

And occasionally, if appropriate, a 4th, I will call your sponsor and ask if that intentionally injuring people playing a game is their companies idea of good marketing?

LOL , the softball police is in the building.....

 

[Sweet Lou]

Most of you are so far off the point, I doubt you can see the trees from the forest.

The runner has every right to try and advance to the next base. The defense making a play to put her out does not alleviate that task. In many cases, the umpire hasn't even announced his/her ruling at the point of the runner being hit with the ball. It is the runner's job to reach that base, period. That part is beyond refute.

The fielder's job is to get as many outs as possible. That fielder has zero restrictions as to where s/he may throw the ball. Common sense would tell any semi-intelligent person that the most likely way to succeed is to use the path of lease resistence. IOW, an open throwing lane. Again, there is no argument to be made on this point.

If the fielder chooses to attempt to throw the ball in an area where it will possibly be stopped or deflected and s/he will not achieve the goal, then it is a DMF. No out, if for not other reason, for just being stupid.

I don't know MTR, a straight direct throw from 2nd to 1st (which just happens to be through the baseline) seems most likely to result in an out. Sure the baserunner can block it with their body if they want to be a hero but I think most runners will take the self preservation route and hit the deck or peel off.