Open mechanics and the pitching regs

[halskinner]

A thread was started in the pitching forum. The poster wanted to know if people taught pitchers to pitch with open mechancis and why or why not.

When I was still pitching I taught the closed mechanics. My response on that thread was definitely on the lines of rules questions so I thought I would post it here for opinions also. My response was, and they always are, just an old pitcher's opinion.

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Which do you prefer/use/teach? When taking the ball back during the wind up, do you keep it in the glove(hillhouse) or do you seperate the ball from the glove first? Thanks!

The rulebooks all say you must bring the hands together in front. You are allowed to bring the ball 'Down and to the rear', there is no allowance that says you are allowed to bring the ball AND the glove down and to the rear.

The pitching regulations are very specific. The tell you what a pitcher is required to do, what they are allowed to do and what actions they are specifically NOT allowed to do. Any other thing/s they do that is not specifically outlined and addressed in the regulations becomes a matter of a 'Judgement call' for the officials.

Whether an umpire would ever call a pitcher for bringing the glove and the ball back behind the straight up and down line of the body, that is a different issue all together.

Just as the pitcher's feet must be in contact with the rubber until the start of the pitch (until the hands separate), this can also be an issue of legality with the open mechanics. I have seen many young pitchers with open mechanics bring the glove and ball back to the rear and start the stride foot coming forward BEFORE the hands actually separate and the pitch begins. Another technicality that never gets enforced.

I have no problem with a pitcher bringing the glove and ball back to the side, as long as the glove does NOT go behind the hip.

Just a few things to think about.

I think this is going to open up a seperate bunch of opinions on rules interpretations. So I am also goung to use this response to open up a new thread in the rules category.

 

[MTR]

Speaking ASA

The rulebooks all say you must bring the hands together in front. You are allowed to bring the ball 'Down and to the rear', there is no allowance that says you are allowed to bring the ball AND the glove down and to the rear.

The pitching regulations are very specific. The tell you what a pitcher is required to do, what they are allowed to do and what actions they are specifically NOT allowed to do. Any other thing/s they do that is not specifically outlined and addressed in the regulations becomes a matter of a 'Judgement call' for the officials.

Whether an umpire would ever call a pitcher for bringing the glove and the ball back behind the straight up and down line of the body, that is a different issue all together..

No, there is nothing that states the hands must come together in front of the body, nor where you can take them.

Just as the pitcher's feet must be in contact with the rubber until the start of the pitch (until the hands separate), this can also be an issue of legality with the open mechanics. I have seen many young pitchers with open mechanics bring the glove and ball back to the rear and start the stride foot coming forward BEFORE the hands actually separate and the pitch begins. Another technicality that never gets enforced.

(No, that is not in the rules.) Corrected: Not specifically noted, but true when applying the delivery to the preliminaries. Too quick on the keyboard.

I have no problem with a pitcher bringing the glove and ball back to the side, as long as the glove does NOT go behind the hip.

Just a few things to think about.

Hal, what rule set are your citing? You have offered a few things that I cannot find.

 

[halskinner]

ASA Rule 6

I will cite the following regulations;

Preliminaries

C. Both feet must be on the ground within the 24" length of the pitcher's plate/ The shoulders must be in-line with 1st and 3rd bases"
C (2) (Female only) "The pitcher shall take a position with both feet in contact with the pitcher's plate.
E. "The pitcher shal bring the hands together for not less than one second and not more than 10 seconds".

Legal Delivery

F. "The release of the ball and follow through of the hand must be FORWARD and past THE STRAIGHT LINE OF THE BODY"


Now we have established the following;

The pitcher must have both feet touching the rubber.
The hands must be brought together
The regulations clearly say there is a difference between FORWARD and REAR (or back) and that is defined as the straight line of the body.

Both feet are touching the rubber and the hands are brought together. This must be done in front of you if the shoulders are to be kept at 1sr and 3rd. I cannot do this, bring the glove and ball to the rear past the straight line of the body and keep my shoulders at 1st abd 3rd. I dont think anyone could.

Now to the question of whether you CAN do something that is NOT mentioned in the regulations. IE: Bring the glove down and to the rear.

Get ready for this one.

I am now going to cite as an example of how well they worded the rulebook, a regulation from MODIFIED PITCHING RULES

Modified Pitch, Rule 6 Section 3 D
"The pitcher may take the ball behind the back in the backswing"

In modified pitch, you can take the ball behind the back. Why? BECAUSE THE RULE BOOK HAS A WRITTEN ALLOWANCE PERMITTING A PITCHER TO DO SO. If there was not, they could not do so legally. That is why a pitcher in fast pitch cannot take the ball behind her back in her motions, BECAUSE THERE IS NO WRITTEN ALLOWANCE PERMITTING HER TO DO SO.

There is also no written allowance permitting a pitcher to bring the ball AND GLOVE down and to the rear, behind the straight line of the body BECAUSE THERE IS NO WRITTEN ALLOWANCE PERMITTING HER TO DO SO.

If the glove goes behind that line, illegal pitch but it is highly unlikely it will ever get called.

Again, the rule book was written and re-written. The pitching regs were incredibly intelligently written.

Any way, if you were allowed to bring the glove behoind the straight line of the body, it would be written in the regs just like the ball going behind the back is in the Modifed regs.

 

[Comp]

You may want to actually read the entire section on fast pitch. 6-3-D The pitcher must not make two revolutions of the arm on the windmill pitch. A pitcher may drop the arm to the side and to the rear before starting the windmill motion.

 

[crystlemc]

You are also allowed to pitch in a slingshot/submarine motion, but it doesn't say that anywhere. Just because it isn't mentioned, does not make it against the rules....

 

[Crabby_Bob]

You are also allowed to pitch in a slingshot/submarine motion, but it doesn't say that anywhere. Just because it isn't mentioned, does not make it against the rules....

A "slingshot" motion is allowed by 6.3.D, i.e. "must not make two revolutions". It doesn't say you have to make a complete revolution. I'm not sure what you may mean by a "submarine" motion but the classic baseball sidearm/submarine motion is prohibited by 6.3.E.

 

[crystlemc]

I understand what the rule is saying, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't specifically say "slingshot". Submarine is the same thing. I've heard it called both 'round these parts...lol.

 

[MTR]

Legal Delivery

F. "The release of the ball and follow through of the hand must be FORWARD and past THE STRAIGHT LINE OF THE BODY"


Now we have established the following;

The pitcher must have both feet touching the rubber.
The hands must be brought together
The regulations clearly say there is a difference between FORWARD and REAR (or back) and that is defined as the straight line of the body.

Both feet are touching the rubber and the hands are brought together. This must be done in front of you if the shoulders are to be kept at 1sr and 3rd. I cannot do this, bring the glove and ball to the rear past the straight line of the body and keep my shoulders at 1st abd 3rd. I dont think anyone could.

And no one thought you could throw strikes behind your back until it happened and a rule was added. The rule states that the release must be forward and past the straight line of the body. There is nothing (in ASA) which states the hands must be brought together in front of the body as it states in NFHS rules.

Now to the question of whether you CAN do something that is NOT mentioned in the regulations. IE: Bring the glove down and to the rear.

Get ready for this one.

I am now going to cite as an example of how well they worded the rulebook, a regulation from MODIFIED PITCHING RULES

Modified Pitch, Rule 6 Section 3 D
"The pitcher may take the ball behind the back in the backswing"

In modified pitch, you can take the ball behind the back. Why? BECAUSE THE RULE BOOK HAS A WRITTEN ALLOWANCE PERMITTING A PITCHER TO DO SO. If there was not, they could not do so legally. That is why a pitcher in fast pitch cannot take the ball behind her back in her motions, BECAUSE THERE IS NO WRITTEN ALLOWANCE PERMITTING HER TO DO SO.

The rule is written that way because is is MP, not FP.

There is also no written allowance permitting a pitcher to bring the ball AND GLOVE down and to the rear, behind the straight line of the body BECAUSE THERE IS NO WRITTEN ALLOWANCE PERMITTING HER TO DO SO.

Hal, there is no rule stating the specific order in which a runner must touch the bases, does that mean we allow the runners to go anyway they want?

If the glove goes behind that line, illegal pitch but it is highly unlikely it will ever get called.

Any way, if you were allowed to bring the glove behoind the straight line of the body, it would be written in the regs just like the ball going behind the back is in the Modifed regs.

You are reading something which is not there because it isn't against any ruleAgain, the rule book was written and re-written. There are hundreds of things not stated in the rule book, that doesn't mean they are not permitted. If they were, War and Peace would look like a booklet compared to the rule book.

 

[halskinner]

You may want to actually read the entire section on fast pitch. 6-3-D The pitcher must not make two revolutions of the arm on the windmill pitch. A pitcher may drop the arm to the side and to the rear before starting the windmill motion.

There is no issue of dropping the (throwing) arm down and to the rear. My apologies there, I didnt say the arm I think I said the hand or ball.

The throwing arm is not the issue, that is a given. The issue is the glove OR the other arm as the regs apperently want to define it. And since there is a definition of the arm there is no written allowance permitting the other arm to go from front to rear either.

That straight line of the body AND the shoulders at 1st and 3rd, maintaining that position, I cannot get my glove to go to the rear past that line. And, I DO have long arms (36"). The only way I can do that is to turn my shoulders away from that angle.

 

[howellhandmade]

SNIP
That straight line of the body AND the shoulders at 1st and 3rd, maintaining that position, I cannot get my glove to go to the rear past that line. And, I DO have long arms (36"). The only way I can do that is to turn my shoulders away from that angle.

Shoulders in line with 1st and 3rd is in the preliminary section, though. I can't think of anyone who pitches maintaining that alignment. Even if the glove hand doesn't go back, the shoulders turn -- once the motion starts, preliminaries are over. The feet don't have to stay on the rubber, either. The issue is how long the pitcher is permitted to conceal the grip as part of the motion. I'm a little surprised: I would have expected a "sneaky pitching" proponent (yes, I have your book) to favor concealing it as long as possible.