Offense vs Defense

[BobInMadison]

The stats freaks have gotten into this some in baseball.

The question is simple. Does good hitting create more runs than bad D allows, or is it the other way around.

We have all seen games where the poor pitcher has to effectively get 4 or 5 or 6 outs in an inning, and with those would-be outs on base, lots of stuff can happen.

An extreme case. My DD 1 was a fast base runner. One time she was at bat against a team with an average 3B. Wimpy ball hit towards 3B, fielder tosses it to first, DD 1 outruns the ball and is safe. DD 1 steals 2 and then 3. Next batter hits a wimpy ball towards 3B, easy out, except the 3B eats the ball rather than allow DD 1 to score. Runner on 1st easily steals second, since they don't want DD 1 to score from third. Instead of 2 outs, there are no outs and runners on 2 and 3. Her team scored 7 runs that inning. (Admittedly, DD 1's steal of second was the most dramatic steal I have ever seen, so this was a strong base runner against an average D).

Now, that wasn't even an error. It was an OK TB 3B playing a little further back. Suppose it had been a great 3B? Instead of a very strong base runner against an average D, a great defensive 3B might've gotten her out. The next batter would've been an easy out. DD 1's team might've gotten a bit of a 2 out rally, but 7 runs would've been doubtful.

But that really leaves the offense vs. defense question up in the air. If DD 1 had been an average base runner, no big inning, so great offense beat average defense. If the defense had been great, it would've killed the rally before it started.


In the end, the game ended up as a tie (league play not tournament), after DD 1 missed a chance at a good defensive play. So DD 1's great offense gave them the lead, but her mediocre defense cost them the win and they settled for a tie.

 

[JAD]

Yup, spot on!
queue Metallica's "Sad But True"...

What DD1 and I were told is that there is somewhat of a shift in this thinking (could be BS), for first base to be more of a utility infielder who is quicker and can play other positions...
Maybe they just didn't want to come and and tell my DD that she's not quick enough

If your DD wants to play F3 at the next level she needs to bring a BIG STICK with her...

 

[obbay]

In HS ball, I have pretty consistently seen that IF errors turn into runs on a 1:1 ratio. Same kids making the errors, coach liked them so they played every game. maybe they hit .300.
DD's HS team last year only lost 1 game by more than 1 run. the first half of the season they easily had 2 IF errors per game.

If they had a stronger lineup OR played better players at 3B and 2B, the difference in W/L would be huge.

 

[slugger3]

If your DD wants to play F3 at the next level she needs to bring a BIG STICK with her...

She's got a fairly big stick, but not the biggest, (1 HR per every 10 at bats, and slugging % .849) but that IS NOT at the super ultra elite gold level...
but she also has small speed (3.1 then, 3.0 now)... and that cost her.
NAIA will be her home next year, and she's happy as heck. Trust me... we are working on the speed.

The thread is Offense vs. Defense... but I'd add "Speed is Everything" to it
What I've seen through my naive eyes the last 2 years is that speed is the single most important attribute a player needs at the "next" level in fast pitch.
When I'm watching your DD's run circles around my DD1... it's blatantly obvious to me that they are a player that garners attention from the top teams.
Just my 2 cents...

 

[BobInMadison]

She's got a fairly big stick, but not the biggest, (1 HR per every 10 at bats, and slugging % .849) but that IS NOT at the super ultra elite gold level...
but she also has small speed (3.1 then, 3.0 now)... and that cost her.
NAIA will be her home next year, and she's happy as heck. Trust me... we are working on the speed.

The thread is Offense vs. Defense... but I'd add "Speed is Everything" to it
What I've seen through my naive eyes the last 2 years is that speed is the single most important attribute a player needs at the "next" level in fast pitch.
When I'm watching your DD's run circles around my DD1... it's blatantly obvious to me that they are a player that garners attention from the top teams.
Just my 2 cents...

Yeah, they tell me speed is everything.

My DD 1 was a monster at lower levels of play because of her speed. The last level she played at was a freshman team, and there were NO catchers on freshman teams who could EVER throw her out at 2nd. She did once get thrown out at 3rd. Once. DD 1 never played on a higher level, since the ONLY thing she liked about softball was stealing bases. DD 1 was very fast, but not D-I fast. Some coaches thought that with some work she could get up to D-I speed, but she wasn't interested.

OTOH, one of the captains of the current HS team is a junior who is a real speed demon. She committed to a D-I school.

 

[JAD]

She's got a fairly big stick, but not the biggest, (1 HR per every 10 at bats, and slugging % .849) but that IS NOT at the super ultra elite gold level...
but she also has small speed (3.1 then, 3.0 now)... and that cost her.
NAIA will be her home next year, and she's happy as heck. Trust me... we are working on the speed.

The thread is Offense vs. Defense... but I'd add "Speed is Everything" to it
What I've seen through my naive eyes the last 2 years is that speed is the single most important attribute a player needs at the "next" level in fast pitch.
When I'm watching your DD's run circles around my DD1... it's blatantly obvious to me that they are a player that garners attention from the top teams.
Just my 2 cents...

"speed does not slump"...but a fast OF who takes bad angles to balls is still going to drive a coach, and the pitchers parents, nuts.

 

[let it be fun]

The thread is Offense vs. Defense... but I'd add "Speed is Everything" to it
What I've seen through my naive eyes the last 2 years is that speed is the single most important attribute a player needs at the "next" level in fast pitch.
Just my 2 cents...

I don't mean to bend my own thread to the ODM measurables thread but I think effective speed is more important than pure speed on defense. All things being equal, I want the 2.7 outfielder over the 2.9 outfielder. However, their actual effective speed may be far different than that. Getting a quick jump on the ball and taking the right angle can equalize speed rather quickly. I think that's why defensive ability will always be somewhat subjective. I am sure we have all seen the player who just plays fast. Everyone gushes about how fast she is, she makes amazing plays on defense, beats out ground balls and bunts, but somehow she can't run faster than a 2.9 when she gets timed.

 

[CoogansBluff]

The thread is Offense vs. Defense... but I'd add "Speed is Everything" to it
What I've seen through my naive eyes the last 2 years is that speed is the single most important attribute a player needs at the "next" level in fast pitch.

Not sure I see that, Slugger.

I do think that speed is an attractive raw ability, but the average foot speed of softball players is probably less than that of soccer, tennis, basketball, gymnastics, and of course track.

But softball players are bigger and stronger on average than other college athletes. So based on that, I'd say size and strength is more valuable than speed.

Also, speed is less important in softball than baseball, IMO. Softball fields are smaller, and the batted ball is coming slower. Super speed is great, but not required. In baseball, you really need a special kind of athlete (ie, fast, quick) at CF/SS/2B to compete, and you usually have to sacrifice some offense to make sure that is covered. But in softball, you can do well with a more typical athlete - if she is very skilled (ie, good arm, glove, an expert at playing that position). You don't have to be really fast to play good SS in softball (though it helps). You don't need 2.6 speed to play CF (though it helps). As a result, you don't have to sacrifice as much offensively. One of your best 9 hitters can probably handle SS/CF just fine - if she's skilled - even if you don't have a super-fast team.

 

[quincy]

Making a quick decision and commiting to it seems more important then raw speed.

 

[spleen1015]

A couple of observations that I have one some of the stuff that's been said.

I spent some time yesterday looking the the ODM numbers for a few of the OnDeck tryouts from last year. The kids that scored in the 90s are always fast. The highest speed numbers always have the highest scores. The highest power numbers are never the highest scores. Speed is weighted more important there I think.

Also, based on my own experiences, fast matters more in the infield than the outfield. I'll take an average speed OF that is 5'8 over a fast OF that is 5'2. The additional height & arm length makes it easier to catch balls on the run, IMO.