Obstruction or not?

[Greenmonsters]

That question was already answered several times in the other thread. If it is obvious the batter/runner or runner is purposely going out of their way to draw an obstruction call, then it is not obstruction and very probable to be unsportsman like conduct. But, there is also no requirement for the batter/runner to run in the baseline, and as is typical of slappers, many times they end up several feet inside the diamond on a slap or bunt. Their direct path to 1st base is now a diagonal line somewhat across the diamond. If f3 is not fielding the ball and blocks this path making the batter/runner deviate from her chosen running line, it is obstruction.

Although outcome may be the same, IMO the DTS discussion was a different scenario, but I follow you. When I see hard right turns necessary to touch 1B, it leads me to suspect that some coaches are having slappers intentionally run inside the diamond to draw OBS calls. How often have you called OBS v.unsportsman like conduct? Where do you draw the line between the two? Coaching defense, the surest out is to have the C throw the ball at the batter/runner any time they're at all inside the 1B foul line. Guys don't think twice about this, girls are another story. Is this what coaches need to teach? Do you think the existing rules work?

 

[Comp]

And if in my judgement the catcher has purposely thrown the ball at the batter/runner, now its going to be an USC call on the catcher.

 

[Greenmonsters]

And if in my judgement the catcher has purposely thrown the ball at the batter/runner, now its going to be an USC call on the catcher.

You didn't answer any of the questions!

 

[Ajaywill]

I will answer....

Although outcome may be the same, IMO the DTS discussion was a different scenario, but I follow you. When I see hard right turns necessary to touch 1B, it leads me to suspect that some coaches are having slappers intentionally run inside the diamond to draw OBS calls. How often have you called OBS v.unsportsman like conduct?

I can recall calling obstruction a few times on similar plays, but have never called USC. Bear in mind, however, that it does not have to be one or the other. I can choose not to call obstruction based on the actions of the runner, but do not have to call USC unless justified.

Where do you draw the line between the two?

Can't really describe, but I know it when I see it!

Coaching defense, the surest out is to have the C throw the ball at the batter/runner any time they're at all inside the 1B foul line. Guys don't think twice about this, girls are another story. Is this what coaches need to teach? Do you think the existing rules work?

The existing rules are fine.
Think about your statement...slappers are trying to hit the ball and beat the throw to first from an infieler. Highly unlikely that the catcher will be throwing to first with a slapper. A bunt is a different play. Also - I'm with Comp...if I judge that a defensive player has intentionally thrown the ball at a runner, that is USC and a likely ejection.

 

[GI Tom]

I'm putting on my contrarion hat again. What's to prevent the batter/runner from intentionally picking a course directly at the 1B (no matter where they are) to get an OBS call?

Greenmonster, you've been wearing that contrarion hat alot for the same topic in several threads and it keeps getting answered the same way.

Look, the bottom line is that as an umpire, if I believe there was intentional running into a fielder to draw OBS, then as Comp indicated, I would likely issue an unsportsmanlike conduct and even a potential ejection depending on severity. I have not had to do this yet, and I'm happy for it.

You just have to accept the following to anwer your question:

There is nothing to prevent them from intentionally picking a course to a fielder in an attempt to draw OBS other than the judgment of the umpire that the course was intentional.

1. Can someone do it intentionally? Yes
2. Could the umpire miss the intenional aspect of it? Yes

That's just the way it is. Your trying to fit a square peg in a round hole by continually implying that the runner has to stay in a pre-defined path and that simply is not the case.

 

[GI Tom]

How often have you called OBS v.unsportsman like conduct? Where do you draw the line between the two? Is this what coaches need to teach? Do you think the existing rules work?

1. I have never called USC during an OBS call, but I've called OBS a few times.
2. As mentioned before, it's one of those things that you know it when you see it, BUT sometimes you may see it and don't know it. A devious player could easily fool an umpire.
3. No.
4. Yes

When you get to higher levels of play, this becomes harder and harder to accomplish due to talent. A good 18U catcher doesn't care where the batter is running, she gets the ball there anyway.

 

[Greenmonsters]

GI Tom and Ajaywill, thanks for stepping up and actually answering the questions that Comp couldn't. I'm happy to hear that judgement is involved. I agree that at the upper levels, the experienced players, in concert with the umpires, are usually quite capable of effectively policing the games. But at the less advanced levels, there ARE coaches that are teaching their batter/runners to try to intentionally create obstruction knowing that a) inexperienced players won't throw the ball for the fear of hitting the runner, and/or b) that many less experienced umpires "see it and don't know it" or just assume that it wasn't intentional. Mainly applicable to bunts, but I've also seen F3 needlessly and intentionally run over by slappers. I put this in the same category as bats being repeatedly dropped in the path of bunts - once its a coincidence, repeatedly its not. IMO, it's naive to think that this bush league BS isn't happening. Hat's off again. That is all.

 

[MTR]

Although outcome may be the same, IMO the DTS discussion was a different scenario, but I follow you. When I see hard right turns necessary to touch 1B, it leads me to suspect that some coaches are having slappers intentionally run inside the diamond to draw OBS calls.

I seriously doubt that. To start, the likelihood of an OBS call at 1B when there is a potential play is more remote than the post office operating in the black.

How often have you called OBS v.unsportsman like conduct? Where do you draw the line between the two?

OBS gets called when there is a play at 1B when F3 impedes the BR while not in possession of the ball or fielding a batted ball.

Coaching defense, the surest out is to have the C throw the ball at the batter/runner any time they're at all inside the 1B foul line. Guys don't think twice about this, girls are another story. Is this what coaches need to teach? Do you think the existing rules work?

As previously noted, if the catcher is throwing at the BR and it isn't that hard for an umpire to make that determination, the BR should not be called out and the catcher warned or ejected. And then you will probably eject the coach for screaming at you about how s/he knows the rules and a runner hit by a thrown ball while outside of the 3' lane IS AGAINST THE RULES and has to be called out.

Well, the coach is wrong on both counts. The BR doesn't have to be called out because there is no such rule.

 

[BretMan]

Comp, in the scenario you describe here is the batter runner at risk of drawing an interference call if the direct path to 1st puts the player in the way of the throw to first? I've seen umpires warn batter runners to run on the foul side of the 1st baseline.

I'm not Comp, but I'll take a stab at this one...

Yes, the batter-runner runs the risk of an interference call if she is out of the running lane. But it isn't interference unless her presence there prevents the fielder at first base from receiving the throw. The interference can be either from the runner being out of the lane and actually being hit by the throw or impeding the fielder herself (bumping into her, etc.).

If there is no throw, then there isn't any interference. If there is one, then it must be deemed a "quality throw". That is, one which is directed in the vicinity of the fielder at first base, such that there would be a reasonable chance of it actually being caught and an out recorded.

It isn't just automatically interference- or even illegal- for a runner to run out of the running lane. It's not interference until the runner actually interferes with the fielder taking the throw.

I don't think that an umpire should be "warning" runners about where to run on this play. Why warn a player for doing something that's not against the rules? I would consider this "coaching" and umpires are never supposed to coach the players. Let their coaches coach them on their responsibilities when running the bases.

An umpire should just call the play. It's either interference or it ain't...pick one!

 

[darken]

I'm not Comp, but I'll take a stab at this one...

Thanks for the clear response, Bretman. Never heard it explained so plainly.

So the bottom line (and probably the reason for the misunderstandings of this) is that while it is never against the ASA rules to run outside the first base running lane, a batter-runner runs the risk of an umpire calling interference if a quality throw hits the player on the way to first.

Do I have that right?