- Oct 12, 2009
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I have no idea who you are referring to.
If you're referring to Sandy Koufax, then I'd remind you that this is a hitting site.
Model swings
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I have no idea who you are referring to.
If you're referring to Sandy Koufax, then I'd remind you that this is a hitting site.
Where is the talk on "the move"?
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
There was some discussion of the 'pre-setup' for "The Move" here:
Back Heel Up at Set-Up?. Posts on the "screw-in" as a preset of "The Move" begin around post #20.
This thread covered "The Move":
Back Leg Action: Push, Thrust, or What?. If you are short on time, then begin with post #74 and read the follow-up posts.
This was dedicated to the topic:
The Move
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FiveFrameSwing
Banned
In my opinion there isn't a single swing clip that supports the hand path that advocated a near perfect vertical forearm at/near 'bat lag'. I haven't been able to find a single game-swing that supports that notion.
I posted in one of those threads, although I didn't follow the entire thread.
I agree, the clips do not support the path of starting the hands above the shoulder or ear and getting out front before releasing the barrel. The vertical forearm stuff is part of the dominate top hand push swing.
To me the clips you posted show that fastpitch hitter make more adjustments behind the body, you can call it tilting if you like. The hands get to a lower position and they are closer to swings of ML hitter such as Boggs, Ichiro, Carew, Williams. While Michelle Smith seldom says much good things about hitting, one thing she did mention is that ML hitters swing paths such as Boggs always did better trying to hit fastpitch pitchers.
The was a perfect discussion with Ichiro that explains the differences between what could be called "Late" adjustments (shoulder tilt) and trying to and adjustments out front.
I agree, the clips do not support the path of starting the hands above the shoulder or ear and getting out front before releasing the barrel. The vertical forearm stuff is part of the dominate top hand push swing.
To me the clips you posted show that fastpitch hitter make more adjustments behind the body, you can call it tilting if you like. The hands get to a lower position and they are closer to swings of ML hitter such as Boggs, Ichiro, Carew, Williams. While Michelle Smith seldom says much good things about hitting, one thing she did mention is that ML hitters swing paths such as Boggs always did better trying to hit fastpitch pitchers.
The was a perfect discussion with Ichiro that explains the differences between what could be called "Late" adjustments (shoulder tilt) and trying to and adjustments out front.
- Oct 12, 2009
- 1,460
- 0
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
A vertical Vee and vertical forearm are different.
A vertical Vee does not have a goal of having a vertical rear forearm as far forward into the swing as 'bat lag'.
A vertical vee, or rear pinched forearm-to-bicep, is a good idea from 'launch' through the 'RVP connection point'. The videos that SL presented, with a goal of a near perfect vertical forearm at/near the 'RVP connection point' resulted in a poor hand path with the elbow too far displaced from the body. The demonstrations of a near perfect vertical forearm at 'bat lag' also didn't match up with any game-swing ever produced. It was simply a recommendation that didn't pass the Hanson Principle.
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I am all for learning...
I like to learn as much as possible - but I use my own/stolen/borrowed terminology for the most part - I've heard Epstein speak at a High School baseball clinic - my main influences are Gary Ward, former Oklahoma State coach, Rob Ellis - pro player, college coach, etc, and Bob Morgan, former coach at Indiana... all baseball guys - I am a former high school head baseball coach for 15 yrs - I have two daughters - 13 and 11... I try to keep it simple for them - bottom line is barrel on the ball for me - you do that and your going to be okay - perfect swing??? I guess if the pitcher threw the ball waist high down the middle we could see a perfect swing... they don't so.... it's about making adjustments during the process and getting the barrel to the ball on time - I have spoken to a couple of SEC softball coaches and they tell me that a baseball and softball swing are basically the same - so that's where I am coming from - I don't understand all this terminology and stuff most of you guys use and quite frankly I'm pretty confident I can teach kids to hit very well with my knowledge base and teaching skills - talent + time + work = hitter
I like to learn as much as possible - but I use my own/stolen/borrowed terminology for the most part - I've heard Epstein speak at a High School baseball clinic - my main influences are Gary Ward, former Oklahoma State coach, Rob Ellis - pro player, college coach, etc, and Bob Morgan, former coach at Indiana... all baseball guys - I am a former high school head baseball coach for 15 yrs - I have two daughters - 13 and 11... I try to keep it simple for them - bottom line is barrel on the ball for me - you do that and your going to be okay - perfect swing??? I guess if the pitcher threw the ball waist high down the middle we could see a perfect swing... they don't so.... it's about making adjustments during the process and getting the barrel to the ball on time - I have spoken to a couple of SEC softball coaches and they tell me that a baseball and softball swing are basically the same - so that's where I am coming from - I don't understand all this terminology and stuff most of you guys use and quite frankly I'm pretty confident I can teach kids to hit very well with my knowledge base and teaching skills - talent + time + work = hitter
Fiveframes, jd29,
Thanks for the links, I did run by this site one day. Although I haven't checked it out completely. The first post shows what I was talking about and even mentions the connection between starting with a open front hip. The clip of Longoria shows exactly what I talking about with the girl and starting with the center of gravity farther back. It also shows and the first post talks about the feeling of coiling up to the point of the finish of the stride. The feeling of the being able to keep a "coiled" feeling longer.
The hitter on the right is not doing it correctly. When I mentioned that COG (center of gravity) being farther back, it involves more then just the position of the mass or COG in relationship with the back leg (back knee) looking at it in X direction (X representing the line of direction in 3 dimensional field). It involves the entire mass (torso) in Y, Z, and starting open allows the mass to literally be "farther back" or behind the back foot.
I like the fact of mentioning the back foot and heel, as this is something I have played with and looked at and shown in Pujols and other clips. While hitters may start with the weight somewhat on the balls of the feet, loading in 3D (all 3 planes), places pressure on the heel as well. The entire back foot or 3 points of pressure is felt, 2 points behind the toes and 1 point being the heel. I have noted that many of the hitters I have of a good catchers views start with the back knee somewhat above the toes (ball of foot) and during loading the back knee becomes more vertical with some extension as the heel takes on more weight and pressure. The back knee then starts to release closer to it's starting position.
I will read through the threads you posted. Although this involves more then just external/internal rotations. Chris as I mentioned during Yeagers clinic about coiling into the back hip or against the back hip, there has to be a downward stabilizing action to first stabilize the back leg/hip and torso. And the loading being discussed in the topic involves more then just mere external/internal rotations.
Thanks for the links, I did run by this site one day. Although I haven't checked it out completely. The first post shows what I was talking about and even mentions the connection between starting with a open front hip. The clip of Longoria shows exactly what I talking about with the girl and starting with the center of gravity farther back. It also shows and the first post talks about the feeling of coiling up to the point of the finish of the stride. The feeling of the being able to keep a "coiled" feeling longer.
The hitter on the right is not doing it correctly. When I mentioned that COG (center of gravity) being farther back, it involves more then just the position of the mass or COG in relationship with the back leg (back knee) looking at it in X direction (X representing the line of direction in 3 dimensional field). It involves the entire mass (torso) in Y, Z, and starting open allows the mass to literally be "farther back" or behind the back foot.
I like the fact of mentioning the back foot and heel, as this is something I have played with and looked at and shown in Pujols and other clips. While hitters may start with the weight somewhat on the balls of the feet, loading in 3D (all 3 planes), places pressure on the heel as well. The entire back foot or 3 points of pressure is felt, 2 points behind the toes and 1 point being the heel. I have noted that many of the hitters I have of a good catchers views start with the back knee somewhat above the toes (ball of foot) and during loading the back knee becomes more vertical with some extension as the heel takes on more weight and pressure. The back knee then starts to release closer to it's starting position.
I will read through the threads you posted. Although this involves more then just external/internal rotations. Chris as I mentioned during Yeagers clinic about coiling into the back hip or against the back hip, there has to be a downward stabilizing action to first stabilize the back leg/hip and torso. And the loading being discussed in the topic involves more then just mere external/internal rotations.
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jd29,
Much of the discussions are an over-kill. If they don't discuss a way to create what should happen naturally as Ted Williams said "it was nothing no one had to teach him". Then it more then likely will not help. The trick is to find out how these visible actions become a natural part of the swing. Simple trying to perform the actions usually doesn't work well. And then you have to figure out why?.
As far as the girl who starts with COG slightly back (we need more frames from the start) she starts has the back knee pinched as well. You see this in many hitters and I have often been asked why. Compare her to the hitter on the right in the clip above, and you will see it doesn't stay pinched forward throughout the shift/stride. It actually move back or as we first noted, has a cocking action. There is some big differences in the 2 clips. You can also compare her to Longoria.
Longoria could be compare to starting in crossover step position, COG farther back/behind the back knee/foot/hip. And then simple completing the cross over step which gives you a feeling of coiling up to the point of the end of the stride. So if your looking for something easy to understand, compare it crop hop throw of an out fielder who coils right up to the point of the front foot being slightly above the ground. The cross over drill which is meant to teaching a better feel for coiling and loading the hands, the coiling feeling last longer (all the way through the shift/stride). I perfer the drill to be performed without a "big" crossover step straight forward. I like a small step in towards the plate and slightly forward with the back foot, at a small angle. I see more ML hitters doing the drill in the manner I use, that is why I starting doing it differently then everyone shows.
Here is a small clip I prepared of Utley, as I mentioned another good hitter to look at the actions discussed.
A decent view of the COG/mass being behind the back knee/foot.
Much of the discussions are an over-kill. If they don't discuss a way to create what should happen naturally as Ted Williams said "it was nothing no one had to teach him". Then it more then likely will not help. The trick is to find out how these visible actions become a natural part of the swing. Simple trying to perform the actions usually doesn't work well. And then you have to figure out why?.
As far as the girl who starts with COG slightly back (we need more frames from the start) she starts has the back knee pinched as well. You see this in many hitters and I have often been asked why. Compare her to the hitter on the right in the clip above, and you will see it doesn't stay pinched forward throughout the shift/stride. It actually move back or as we first noted, has a cocking action. There is some big differences in the 2 clips. You can also compare her to Longoria.
Longoria could be compare to starting in crossover step position, COG farther back/behind the back knee/foot/hip. And then simple completing the cross over step which gives you a feeling of coiling up to the point of the end of the stride. So if your looking for something easy to understand, compare it crop hop throw of an out fielder who coils right up to the point of the front foot being slightly above the ground. The cross over drill which is meant to teaching a better feel for coiling and loading the hands, the coiling feeling last longer (all the way through the shift/stride). I perfer the drill to be performed without a "big" crossover step straight forward. I like a small step in towards the plate and slightly forward with the back foot, at a small angle. I see more ML hitters doing the drill in the manner I use, that is why I starting doing it differently then everyone shows.
Here is a small clip I prepared of Utley, as I mentioned another good hitter to look at the actions discussed.
A decent view of the COG/mass being behind the back knee/foot.
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