there's more than one way to skin a cat - always has been, always will - alot of these video's show very poor mechanics - why because the athletes have a lot of talent they can do them wrong - some think because they see these girls killing the ball that it is the correct way to swing - they are wrong - most players do not have the strength or bat speed to have poor mechanics - long strides: as someone said -how many of us would try to change it - well if an average kid tried some of this stuff they'd quit playing cause they'd never hit the ball - great athletes overcome themselves alot of the time -
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there's more than one way to skin a cat - always has been, always will - alot of these video's show very poor mechanics - why because the athletes have a lot of talent they can do them wrong - some think because they see these girls killing the ball that it is the correct way to swing - they are wrong - most players do not have the strength or bat speed to have poor mechanics - long strides: as someone said -how many of us would try to change it - well if an average kid tried some of this stuff they'd quit playing cause they'd never hit the ball - great athletes overcome themselves alot of the time -
Any thoughts on why K'Lee (clip above) uses such an extreme rear pigeon-toe orientation (rear foot turned inward) in her stance?
normally see this with players who are thicker around the hips - it is an old variation from Gary Ward - called a preset back heel - allows you to "turn" on the ball easier -
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
I don't know if you've been following all of the discussions on "The Move", but if you have, then take a second look at this extreme pigeon toe setup and see if you agree that it conflicts with that.
It may allow you to "turn on the ball easier", by "internal rotation", but that is not "The Move".
I believe it is like you suggest ... a "short cut" for someone that believes the objective at swing initiation is to force "internal rotation" of the rear leg within the rear hip socket.
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I really don't follow this board much - IMHO - too many experts for me - i don't understand alot of the terminology they use - I don't like Epstein - the MLB swing is to hit HR - why? you get paid - I like line drives and hard ground balls - to me hiting needs to be simplified so others can understand - load, stride, spin and transfer weight forward with hand and hips working together - bottom line - barrel on ball ... I have no idea what "the move" is... the preset heal is a shortcut - for people who aren't quick on inside pitches they may have to do it - every player is not world class - so they better find ways they can compete
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
I also like line-drives.
I try to make an effort to understand the various terminologies. I feel it opens me up to various ideas.
I don’t know Epstein personally, but I believe he has made some significant contributions.
The MLB swing, or HLBB swing, need not be about hitting HRs. IMO HRs are accidents. The objective, more often than not, is a line-drive gapper.
I agree that simplification is a noteworthy goal, especially in terms of teaching, but I’m willing to go through the pain to extend my understanding of the swing.
What you refer to as a “preset heel”, is indeed a shortcut … and IMO it is a shortcut taken because of a lack of understanding of more efficient mechanics.
I also believe that every player is not world class … but at the same time I believe the high level of competition at the highest levels has forced hitters to seek efficient mechanics. I believe there is a commonality amongst efficient mechanics used by the better players … and I believe that those at a lower level may be even in greater need of understanding high efficiency hitting patterns.
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- Oct 12, 2009
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FiveFrameSwing
Banned
I tend to agree with you on this CO. See ... it happens.
To me, a severe pigeon toe, like that shown in this lady's swing, prevents "The Move". I do agree with JD29's explanation ... that this is generally done with the notion of making it easier to turn on inside pitches ... but I feel that mentality comes from those that don't understand "The Move".
The pigeon toe can mean nothing. Although it is commonly used with hitters who start with the center of gravity farther back.
The center of gravity can "seem" to back even farther back with someone with who starts with a open front hip or stance. I remember as far back as 10 years ago someone posting information on Sandy Kaufax talking about why not start in a pre-load position, internally twist which pre stretches the external actions. The pre load has to do with the some recent discussion on the external rotation twist through the back leg/hip after stabilizing the back side.
From the pre-loaded backside as referenced by Kaufax and the discussions on external rotation during the load/shift. You can see in the clip that the hitter from the stance and pigeon toe, travels and shifts forward and "seems" to carry the load farther forward because she started with the center of gravity farther back.
Technically there is some possibilities that starting with an open front hip, somewhat of a pre loaded back leg/hip and center of gravity that is behind or farther back may allow you to shift/stride and be in a better coiled position throughout the stride phase.
Such hitters are one reason why some biomechanic reports differ in opinions of when the coil is finished. There are conflicting reports that the coil is finished before the stride "starts" forward (finished after the fron foot is lifted) or at least by the half way point. While others have reported it not being completed until the end of the stride, toe touch.
A hitter to look at would be Utley, for starting with the front hip open, the center of gravity farther back, someone who "seems" to finish coiling at toe touch, and a slightly turned forward foot/toe. The girl also seems to finish coiling at toe touch.
Everyone starts with some pre-load and how far the toe points forward doesn't matter that much IMO. It's more, the pointing forward, of what the hitter is trying to achieve.
I would watch the shift of the mass/torso and it's starting point. Then draw your own conclusions of how this can possible help maintian a coil during the shift forward.
I have no idea what is being discussed on "The move", or what is being called the move.
The center of gravity can "seem" to back even farther back with someone with who starts with a open front hip or stance. I remember as far back as 10 years ago someone posting information on Sandy Kaufax talking about why not start in a pre-load position, internally twist which pre stretches the external actions. The pre load has to do with the some recent discussion on the external rotation twist through the back leg/hip after stabilizing the back side.
From the pre-loaded backside as referenced by Kaufax and the discussions on external rotation during the load/shift. You can see in the clip that the hitter from the stance and pigeon toe, travels and shifts forward and "seems" to carry the load farther forward because she started with the center of gravity farther back.
Technically there is some possibilities that starting with an open front hip, somewhat of a pre loaded back leg/hip and center of gravity that is behind or farther back may allow you to shift/stride and be in a better coiled position throughout the stride phase.
Such hitters are one reason why some biomechanic reports differ in opinions of when the coil is finished. There are conflicting reports that the coil is finished before the stride "starts" forward (finished after the fron foot is lifted) or at least by the half way point. While others have reported it not being completed until the end of the stride, toe touch.
A hitter to look at would be Utley, for starting with the front hip open, the center of gravity farther back, someone who "seems" to finish coiling at toe touch, and a slightly turned forward foot/toe. The girl also seems to finish coiling at toe touch.
Everyone starts with some pre-load and how far the toe points forward doesn't matter that much IMO. It's more, the pointing forward, of what the hitter is trying to achieve.
I would watch the shift of the mass/torso and it's starting point. Then draw your own conclusions of how this can possible help maintian a coil during the shift forward.
I have no idea what is being discussed on "The move", or what is being called the move.
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O'leary,
Tell Kaufax it's a bad idea. It's only a bad idea if you do not know the reason for it being done. It will not help someone without the knowledge of why someone would do it.
Tell Kaufax it's a bad idea. It's only a bad idea if you do not know the reason for it being done. It will not help someone without the knowledge of why someone would do it.
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Fiveframes,
My post was directed toward your question. And to the one person who posted.
Thanks for posting so many clips. If any thing this proves that not many really know how good fastpitch hitters swing, let alone ML hitters. The past talks on swing paths is not supported by hardly any of the swings you posted. It's much easier to write the swings off as poor mechanics or gifted players, rather then to have your belief system to be destroyed. Unwittingly most are just teaching a push swing because that seems to work best for the majority of the kids they taught, Effort equals power.
My post was directed toward your question. And to the one person who posted.
Thanks for posting so many clips. If any thing this proves that not many really know how good fastpitch hitters swing, let alone ML hitters. The past talks on swing paths is not supported by hardly any of the swings you posted. It's much easier to write the swings off as poor mechanics or gifted players, rather then to have your belief system to be destroyed. Unwittingly most are just teaching a push swing because that seems to work best for the majority of the kids they taught, Effort equals power.
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