Look Back Rule

[The Man In Blue]

It's not an appeal. It is just a runner being tagged while not in contact with a base.

USA Softball does list it as an appeal in the Rule Supplement, but there is no support for that in the actual rules. There is no reason for this to be considered an appeal. A runner is not out for overrunning the base or for trying to advance. It isn't an appeal when a runner is tagged out stealing second (or any other place).

USA also says the batter runner touching the white only when there is a play at first is an appeal play.

 

[flash277]

It's not an appeal. It is just a runner being tagged while not in contact with a base.

USA Softball does list it as an appeal in the Rule Supplement, but there is no support for that in the actual rules. There is no reason for this to be considered an appeal. A runner is not out for overrunning the base or for trying to advance. It isn't an appeal when a runner is tagged out stealing second (or any other place).

USA also says the batter runner touching the white only when there is a play at first is an appeal play.

Maybe the appeal is that the defense tagged the runner who turned left after 1st base, and the offense is appealing that the runner didn't go far enough for an attempt?

 

[jackfrost]

We all know there are four appeals:

A. Missing a base, either advancing or returning (live or dead-ball appeal). B. Leaving a base on a caught fly ball before the ball is first touched (live or dead-ball appeal). C. Batting out of order (dead-ball appeal only). D. Attempting to advance to second base after making the turn at first base overrunning first base (live-ball appeal only).

So then, what is D?......I thought I understood it, but now I don't again, what is an example of that appeal?

You understand it. You've got the wording from the book and you correctly explained it.

 

[umpwally]

It's not an appeal. It is just a runner being tagged while not in contact with a base.

USA Softball does list it as an appeal in the Rule Supplement, but there is no support for that in the actual rules. There is no reason for this to be considered an appeal. A runner is not out for overrunning the base or for trying to advance. It isn't an appeal when a runner is tagged out stealing second (or any other place).

USA also says the batter runner touching the white only when there is a play at first is an appeal play.

In the actual rules, rule 8-7-H talks about it and Effect -Section 7F-I clearly states and supports that it is, in fact, considered an appeal play.

 

[The Man In Blue]

@umpwally -- Ahhh ... I did not read the "effects" section. D'oh!

I would still maintain that it is improper for USA Softball to dub this an appeal play. If it truly were an appeal play, the defense would be able to tag the runner for the appeal even if the runner were back on first base. Opportunity for an appeal play does not end until the next pitch (oversimplified to remove the leaving the field provisions).

When this play occurs, I do not allow the defense to tag the runner and then call the runner safe UNTIL they say "I appeal." I call the runner out immediately because the runner is live, in play, and was tagged out. Appeal plays require an umpire to see and know about the violation, yet render a ruling of safe UNTIL the defense appeals.

I'll have to dig into the other books later to see what they say on this. Interesting ...

Anybody have any input on the logic of this being an appeal?

 

[EdLovrich]

Opportunity for an appeal play does not end until the next pitch (oversimplified to remove the leaving the field provisions).

This is not accurate, appealing a leaving base early before a fly ball is touched does not extend past the runner retouching the base. a missed base does not extend past returning and touching the base properly.

APPEAL to call upon another for corroboration, vindication, or decision

Overrunning first base is an allowed act. If the runner is returning to the base they may not be put out. However, the defense MAY appeal to the umpire by tagging the runner, appealing for a decision that she made an attempt to advance to second base. This MUST be a live ball appeal and you may NOT appeal by touching the base.

This call is different than a runner being in peril of being put out, because the only decision the umpire would need to make in such a case is was the runner tagged while off of the base, not something that happened earlier in the play.

All of the appeals are asking for a decision on something that happened earlier in the play rather than a judgment about what is happening right now.

Basically, if you can tag the runner/(EDIT: and/or the base) while off the bag and an umpire can signal her 'safe' (provided the umpire is correct in the safe call) it is an appeal.

 

[The Man In Blue]

This is not accurate, appealing a leaving base early before a fly ball is touched does not extend past the runner retouching the base. a missed base does not extend past returning and touching the base properly.

Again, d'oh!

I suppose part of my trouble in the logic of it being an appeal play is illustrated by leaving a base early. I don't consider a play on a runner who left early (i.e., the runner and the throw are trying to beat one another to the bag) the same as an appeal once the runner is standing on the next bag and play has seemingly stopped. Yes, I guess the play is technically an appeal ... however the rules also explicitly state an appeal is NOT a play ... so how can a play be an appeal?

To me, an appeal is something that happens once play has halted and before the next play begins. But, I don't write the rulebook.

All of the appeals are asking for a decision on something that happened earlier in the play rather than a judgment about what is happening right now.

To me, this is reinforcement that this should NOT be an appeal play. The batter runner has made a move to second base ... the ball is live and the runner is in play. It is happening NOW.

 

[EdLovrich]

The batter runner has made a move to second base ... the ball is live and the runner is in play. It is happening NOW.

Has made, present perfect tense, that means it happened in the past and it still exists. The runner IS off the base, present tense. The runner might be out for what happened earlier, but they will not be out simply because they are off the bag right now.

 

[The Man In Blue]

@EdLovrich ... thank you for humoring me and talking through this. I promise this isn't me be problematic (though some people see it that way) ... this is the way I take things apart to better understand (or try to understand) them.

The runner is not out, and cannot be out, just for making a turn. She would be out because she was tagged off the bag, just like any other runner tagged off the bag.

Rules state that a player is out for leaving a base early, missing a base, failing to bat in order ... however the umpire cannot rule the player out when the umpire catches these infractions -- she/he must wait for the defense to make an appeal.

On a runner making a turn to second, the out is not the result of an illegal action (such as leaving a base early, missing a base, or batting out of order) ... it is the result of a perfectly legal action. The only thing that changes with that action is that the runner has lost the overrun protection once she/he makes a move to second.

There is no rule that says a batter runner CANNOT make an attempt at second. They simply lose protection once they choose to do so. She cannot be out just for making an attempt; she must be tagged while off the bag during a live ball to be put out ... that is a normal tag play. The defense cannot throw the ball to the bag and say "She turned!" Are you still calling it an appeal if they tag her out sliding into second? Why not?