look back rule on ball 4

[Westwind]

MIB- I can tell you genuinely love the game.

If you ever get a chance, get to a tournament where there are numerous PGF premier teams playing. The differences in the game are absolutely fascinating.

We all think we see high level softball until you watch a whole weekend of the best of the best. It’s a really eye opening experience and was humbling to a guy like me who had never seen it before.

(Just to be clear- my dd did not play at that level and I am therefore not attempting to brag about the superhigh level my dd played at lol)

 

[ang2bmd]

MIB, I don’t think he’s talking about creeping. He is talking about a well planned and well executed first and third play that high level softball teams run regularly.

I have watched this happen many times. The most exaggerated case I saw was Beverly Bandits Conroy.

Base on balls creates a first and third, runner rounds first and turns toward second. Pitcher has ball in circle. Waits until runner is almost to second, makes play. Runner bursts off third as soon as this happens. SS walks runner back to first, (which is most teams only hope against that team). Throws ball back to circle, as she throws ball back to pitcher, runner bursts back off first. It’s on again.

This went on for awhile, a surprisingly long time, finally ss gets frustrated, takes the out at first, the run scores.

Some teams are REALLY good at this. And they have the kind of speed that makes it REALLY hard to defend.

We play for the Bandits organization and they learn this play all the way down in 10s. By the time they get to Bill they're really good at it. His teams are always super fun to watch because they are so aggressive on the bases.

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[MTR]

Umpire cannot allow the pitcher to pitch while runners are legally off base.

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Three guesses on where I would go with this one.......

 

[The Man In Blue]

MIB, I don’t think he’s talking about creeping. He is talking about a well planned and well executed first and third play that high level softball teams run regularly.

I have watched this happen many times. The most exaggerated case I saw was Beverly Bandits Conroy.

Base on balls creates a first and third, runner rounds first and turns toward second. Pitcher has ball in circle. Waits until runner is almost to second, makes play. Runner bursts off third as soon as this happens. SS walks runner back to first, (which is most teams only hope against that team). Throws ball back to circle, as she throws ball back to pitcher, runner bursts back off first. It’s on again.

This went on for awhile, a surprisingly long time, finally ss gets frustrated, takes the out at first, the run scores.

Some teams are REALLY good at this. And they have the kind of speed that makes it REALLY hard to defend.

Then we are talking about two very different things. In the example you give, LBR is not a factor since plays are being made. I thought we were discussing LBR violations.

 

[testandor]

Sorry, but I don't get any of this. Several things leave me thinking 'WTF is this all about'? First, my issues.

1. Only young, inexperienced teams and coaches get fooled into leaving a runner off 3B when the pitcher has the ball in the circle and the walked BR rounds 1st on her way to 2nd.

2. Unless you think you're up against an incompetent defense/catcher, there's no reason to round 1st and continue on to 2nd. You can just wait one pitch and steal 2nd. Much easier for the offense to make the catcher throw 85 ft to 2B to throw out that runner on the attempted steal than the pitcher having to throw 40 ft to do the same thing.

3. Unless your defense is cocky or stupid - or ahead by a ton of runs - why would you risk a runner at 3rd scoring just to prevent the runner at 1st from taking 2B?

So, based on my beliefs, offensively, there's no good strategic reason for sending your walked batter on to 2B. Defensively, there's no good reason to pay ANY attention to that BR rounding 1st other than to draw that runner off 3B and have her try for home. If you can get that to happen, great, because in my coach's world, once you have a runner in a run down, a good defense will have the out!

All the rest of this nonsense is either running it up on a weak sister, or incompetence by an inexperienced/bad/poorly coached team.

 

[Westwind]

Testandor, in the example above it was a 0-0 game against a very competitive team, (both teams were pretty much all d1 commits) and I’m guessing they wanted to score the run. I personally think I would consider conceding the runner going to second but that really sucks too.

The games at this level are decided by a run or two usually.

I can’t speak to the strategy questions. I can tell you they do it at all ages like Ang2bmd said above. I will say this, most teams that do this are built on speed. They have a luxury most teams don’t have to that extent.

 

[Comp]

I can tell you for a fact any team that attempted to have the walked batter advance to 2nd with a runner on third paid the price against my daughters 14, 16 and 18 and high school teams. They practiced defending it and could get the out on the advancing runner at 2nd without allowing the runner at 3rd to score, and if the runner at 3rd did attempt to score they would get both outs. It is not that hard to defend against.

 

[Rick M]

DD is a pitcher, and we've practiced defending the walk with a runner on third. I had the catcher make the throwback as quickly as possible, and had DD catch and then hold the ball in her throwing hand, with both hands at her sides. Then face the shortstop and walk into the back half of the circle while the batter/runner goes to first. 2B takes a conspicuous position with her glove out about 10 feet off of second.

As testandor pointed out, even if the runner does not take the continuation, they're going to steal on the first pitch. If they do round first, it can be a gift. Should the defensive play be:

1. Have the second baseman charge on the throw to try and nail the runner breaking from third
2. Hold the second baseman and try to get the tagout/throwout double play
3. Fake to second to negate the lookback and then try to catch the runner off of third

I know the answer can depend a lot on personnel and the speed of the runners, but how do you practice it? Also, I had a minor disagreement with the HC about the position of the 2B. I thought she should be close to the bag, to keep the runner at third guessing as to whether a throw would be made. He though the 2B should be midway, to allow for the possibility of making the tag behind the runner. Thoughts?

 

[Comp]

I understand the runner stealing on the next pitch in lower level of play, but if your team is good enough to defend the 3rd base walk play they should also be able to defend a runner stealing 2nd with a runner on 3rd. When was the last time you saw a college team just give up 2nd base with a runner on 3rd?

 

[GunnerShotgun]

I understand the runner stealing on the next pitch in lower level of play, but if your team is good enough to defend the 3rd base walk play they should also be able to defend a runner stealing 2nd with a runner on 3rd. When was the last time you saw a college team just give up 2nd base with a runner on 3rd?

My point, and please go back and reread Westind's post (#40) again is that there are some teams at the highest level that are making a mockery of the LBR to an extreme level.

I understand that at the local and high school level you can defend the first and third play to an extent but when you have a team of D1 athletes that have practiced this play for many years it's impossible to stop every time. In a close game I have seen it be the difference repeatedly.

Why don't you see it in college? My guess is that college coaches tend to be risk adverse as their jobs on the line. This is also why so many football coaches are cowards on 4th and short when the analytics overwhelmingly say you should be going for it.

Just my observations on why I hate the LBR...