look back rule on ball 4

[Rick M]

Why don't you see it in college? My guess is that college coaches tend to be risk adverse as their jobs on the line. This is also why so many football coaches are cowards on 4th and short when the analytics overwhelmingly say you should be going for it.

This is an interesting take. DD is moving up to her first year of 14U in the fall, so I just assumed that it would get to the point, as Comp alluded to, that the skill of the infielders would eventually render the play moot. But as you said, the baserunners are also smarter and faster, so maybe it does just come down to being more conservative with runners on.

That was one of my takeaways after reading Moneyball (baserunners are a precious commodity, don't put them at risk unnecessarily).

 

[testandor]

A few thoughts concerning the follow up comments.

There are all sorts of levels of play that posters here talk about and refer to - Rec league, All Stars, 10U thru 18U, Class A & B, High School & College. And at every level, there's good play and bad play, and everything in between. So I'll concede that there are some teams that are just so good that they can outrun lots of defenses. Maybe there are lots of teams that can outrun defenses.. But when comparing them to all of the different teams that are talked about here, they are a very small percentage.

I umpire every level of play with the exception of college and HS, but I count my 19 years as a varsity coach as being more than a little familiar with that level as well. And I swear, the older and better trained the teams are that I umpire, the less I see walked batters continue past 1B with a runner on 3rd. In fact, I almost never see it. And I maintain that the reason for that is that this 'move' is dependent on the defense making a mistake. As Comp and some others have said, it's not that hard for a good defense to defend this. And while getting the DP is always the ultimate outcome, for me it's all about getting that runner on 3rd to break for home. Once you do, how does that runner go 60' without a throw getting to the catcher well ahead of time? And when it does, now you've got that runner in a rundown. And with a good defense, that's gotta be an out

In Westwind's follow up comments, we find out the game mentioned in the OP was scoreless. While we don't know how many outs, why would you screw around like that with a good defense? You've already got the go ahead run on 3rd!

You don't have to be an elite defense to defend this. Competent will be good enough.

 

[Westwind]

A few thoughts concerning the follow up comments.

There are all sorts of levels of play that posters here talk about and refer to - Rec league, All Stars, 10U thru 18U, Class A & B, High School & College. And at every level, there's good play and bad play, and everything in between. So I'll concede that there are some teams that are just so good that they can outrun lots of defenses. Maybe there are lots of teams that can outrun defenses.. But when comparing them to all of the different teams that are talked about here, they are a very small percentage.

I umpire every level of play with the exception of college and HS, but I count my 19 years as a varsity coach as being more than a little familiar with that level as well. And I swear, the older and better trained the teams are that I umpire, the less I see walked batters continue past 1B with a runner on 3rd. In fact, I almost never see it. And I maintain that the reason for that is that this 'move' is dependent on the defense making a mistake. As Comp and some others have said, it's not that hard for a good defense to defend this. And while getting the DP is always the ultimate outcome, for me it's all about getting that runner on 3rd to break for home. Once you do, how does that runner go 60' without a throw getting to the catcher well ahead of time? And when it does, now you've got that runner in a rundown. And with a good defense, that's gotta be an out

In Westwind's follow up comments, we find out the game mentioned in the OP was scoreless. While we don't know how many outs, why would you screw around like that with a good defense? You've already got the go ahead run on 3rd!

You don't have to be an elite defense to defend this. Competent will be good enough.

Lol! Yeah it might seem like any competent defense could handle this. But they can’t.

Hey, not trying to be snarky but you guys do know what team Bandits Conroy is, right? PGF Premier, P5 commits etc etc..... I’m sorry, but there is no high school team in the country that could defend this play against that team.

18u Iowa Premier Fastpitch was the defensive team in the example I used above. (It was in Kansas City at a Team One event.) As I write this, the same Iowa Premier Fastpitch team is playing for the 18u Platinum championship in Huntington Beach.

Is your high school team more “defensively competent” than a team playing for a PGF 18u national championship?

I’m telling you, if you haven’t seen this in action you can’t believe it. I know I wouldn’t have.

Your point of readers and posters having different views based on the level they play is well taken. We all think we see softball at what we consider a high level. What is going on in Huntington Beach is about as high as it gets from what I see.

As far as college coaches not doing this.... that’s a discussion for another time but I completely agree with Gunner Shotguns assessment.

 

[Westwind]

In Westwind's follow up comments, we find out the game mentioned in the OP was scoreless. While we don't know how many outs, why would you screw around like that with a good defense? You've already got the go ahead run on 3rd!

The teams that do this will run it with two outs.

They want the run.

They score the run before the tag out. There usually isn’t an out.

The pitchers on both sides of these games are usually really, really good.

That’s why they want that one run.

 

[testandor]

Hey, not trying to be snarky

I didn't take it that way. We're just talking softball.

but you guys do know what team Bandits Conroy is, right? PGF Premier, P5 commits etc etc.....

Now I do. But before you told me, I had no clue. And it really doesn't change my point.

Is your high school team more “defensively competent” than a team playing for a PGF 18u national championship?

With all due respect, Westwind, now you're being silly. My HS team was defensively competent against the better teams in our league, as were my travel teams. None of them were ever elite. But the Bandits weren't playing any of my teams. They were playing Iowa Premier Fastpitch, who I assume are defensively competent against a team like the Bandits. That's why I brought up the various levels of play, assuming these discussions are about competitively equal teams, regardless of the level.

So, assuming you believe that I'm not challenging you here, I'm really just trying to envision how this works. Your description is of 2 elite teams playing in a 0-0 game. Let's say I'm coaching Iowa, we're on defense, and the fleet footed Bandits are batting. I'm already in trouble, and I'm double pissed. Not only has my team allowed the go-ahead run to get on base, but she's in scoring position - at 3rd, no less. And secondly, adding insult to injury, my pitcher just gave them a free base by walking their batter, who's on her way to 2nd.

So, here we are, with THE situation we're discussing in this thread, a situation we've all seen hundreds of times. I'll try to restate my points a little differently than the first time.

The first two are facts, the rest opinion.
1. My defense has total control of this situation. The offense has NO control.
2. It is not possible for that runner on third to score unless I set her free. It is also not possible for my defense to get that runner out unless I set her free.
3. The only reason to make any play on the batter runner rounding 1B is to set that runner on 3rd free so my defense can get her out.
4. And since getting that batter runner out and ending up with the other runner scoring is NOT an acceptable outcome, I'd better get that runner out once she steps off 3B.

Yet, here's the description you gave of the play you watched.

"Runner bursts off third as soon as this happens. SS walks runner back to first.... Throws ball back to circle, as she throws ball back to pitcher, runner bursts back off first. It’s on again.

This went on for awhile, a surprisingly long time, finally ss gets frustrated, takes the out at first, the run scores."

SAY WHAT?!!! This is a totally unacceptable outcome - at any level - let alone national elite status. I can't understand paying all that attention to the batter runner, and then, when the SS gets frustrated, she trades the go-ahead run for an out? In all my years of coaching travel, I only "lost it" twice (both times to my regret). Had I been coaching that defense, that probably would have been my third.

One last thing. I envy your ability to be able to watch elite softball. I'd love to be able to do that. But as I've mentioned before, the overwhelming majority of forum members have daughters who are playing at younger and lower levels. For them, this rounding 1B after a BB with a runner on 3rd diminishes greatly once the defenses become competent. It becomes easier to defend. When those BRs start getting thrown out after rounding 1B, they tend to wait to steal the base on the first pitch to the next batter. And when the defense starts throwing their other runner out at home, they tend to stop doing it altogether. I won't argue that it doesn't get more popular at higher levels. I dont know. But, again, I don't think that the higher levels are where the overwhelming majority of forum members have their DDs playing. So, I think it's always important to note the exception of a play af the elite level, because it very well may not apply to the vast majority of other levels of play that we all see and talk about.

Thanks for letting me "think this through" out loud.

 

[Silver 2200]

The Beverly Bandits practice this 1st, and 3rd play from the time that these girls join the program at 10u. These teams will run circles around you if given the chance. This 1st and 3rd situation doesn't just happen with a runner on 3rd and the batter gets walked. This is going on all game, every time there is a hit the Bandits are taking that extra base with the runner on third. This puts a ton of pressure on the defense.

Conroy's Bandits are playing the in the 16u PGF Premier Championship right now. He has been running this play all weekend against the best teams in the country. It does not work every time, but it sure does work most of the time.

I won't say that all the Bandit teams run this play all the time but the teams that are based out of Chicago certainly do.

 

[testandor]

These teams will run circles around you if given the chance.

As to just this 'walk with a runner on 3B' situation we've been talking about, my point is that the defense is still in control. If you know that you're playing a team with tremendous speed and baserunning skills, you don't have to let that runner off of 3rd. In a situation like Westwind described, they didn't have to "give them the chance". They can allow that BR to continue her trot to 2B, and then go about the business of keeping that runner at 3B from scoring. And I'd think that the team they're playing at Nationals should know their baserunning prowess. A lot of people here seem to know about it.

1st and 3rd situation doesn't just happen with a runner on 3rd and the batter gets walked. This is going on all game, every time there is a hit the Bandits are taking that extra base with the runner on third.

Now THIS is something I'd pay an admission fee to just sit back and watch all day! There are few things I appreciate and respect more in this game than a pressure offense that is using the short game and always pushing the defense for that extra base. My respect is great for an organization that teaches this kind of offense! My envy of you getting to watch this is also great. Enjoy the weekend!

 

[MTR]

All this for a rule that should be dumped

 

[Westwind]

I don’t always get to watch softball at this level- that’s why it is so damn fascinating.

I agree that the defense should be in control. It just doesn’t work like that against teams that are good at this stuff. They just keep taking shovel fulls of dirt out of the dam until the dam breaks open.

Some of these teams “give away” outs on offense. To me, an out is a valuable thing. Yet the Bandits teams I have watched keep coming at you and they draw you into playing their game and when you do that they win. One minute you are thinking “we are in this” the next minute you aren’t. Giving away outs became part of the plan and they stick with it.

Like another poster said, they do so many smart things base running. I wish I had a how-to list. And I’m sure I don’t understand why some of it works. Base running is the most under taught skill in softball. I feel like I know more than most but I’m not in the same room with the Bandits teams.

I have had the chance to watch a few truly elite teams play other elite teams and had the opportunity to watch a few from the other dugout. You know, each elite team had a different plan. One team was the reigning 18u Platinum PGF champions. It was the year after they won and we played them in a practice game in Colorado. Dd’s team was a young 16u team. The head coach of our team didn’t know they were 18u, lol. They were lean, muscular, and played straight up fundamental softball with no bells or whistles. There weren’t a bunch of tag along players sitting the bench. They just destroyed us. We really didn’t commit errors, they just hit lasers and home runs no matter how much we stayed off the plate. Big zone hitters. If you came near the plate, they crushed it. They made every play on defense. It was a thing of beauty.

We played this other team out there the year before. Roster of 25 or so. Seemed like everyone on the team was going to Arizona. Big girls. Except for the pinch runners, lol. Home runs were the goal. If the hitter didn’t hit it over, she got subbed out for the fastest players I have ever seen. When she came back to the dugout the original player usually came back in. Repeat. This happened over and over. Well, they beat us soundly but they didn’t short game us like every other game they played.

My point I guess is that the Conroy style game plan isn’t the “only” plan but that plan sure works for him. Elite teams have a plan. They have the luxury of picking players that work with that plan. The rest of us poor schmucks have to try to come up with a plan that works with the players we have.

 

[Westwind]

All this for a rule that should be dumped

I agree.