Late Breaking Pitches (Respect for Junk Ballers)

[sluggers]

Sorry eastcoast, you are wrong. The horizontal movement of the ball for both pitches is identical. Here is the NASA link: CurveBall Expert Version - 1.7e beta Doesn't matter if it is a 100MPH or 30 MPH, the amount of horizontal break is the same as long as the spin is the same.

The Magnus Force (the force that makes the ball curve) is directly proportional to the speed of the ball. The faster the ball, the greater the force. But, the faster the ball, the less time the ball has to move. They cancel each other out. The only factor in horizontal movement is the spin on the ball and the direction of spin.

 

[Ken B]

I believe time and distance also affect the outcome. A slower moving ball with the same RPM will have more spins and more time for the effect to occur. A faster moving ball will get fewer spins and less effect.

This brings up another question:
Ball A: 70 MPH over 40 feet. Ball spins 5 times
Ball B: 50 MPH over 40 feet. Ball spins 5 times

Which has more break?

 

[eastcoast]

Ok Slugger!. Here is the scientific formula for you . L = (4 * pi^2 * b^3 * s * rho * V) * 4 / 3

where s = spin, V = velocity . Increase in both causes increase in later lift L.
Only inverse here is time takes reach the plate from circle. So let the science speak itself.

 

[Ken B]

eastcoast,
Any chance you could C/P the Cliffs Notes version?!

Thanks,
Bonehead

 

[redhack]

Spin has the greatest effect on the equation. However given the same spin rate the velocity would be the next greatest force in the equation.

I would estimate that one more rev per second would have a greater effect than 5 mph on distanced moved in 43 feet.

 

[Gbucz]

I believe time and distance also affect the outcome. A slower moving ball with the same RPM will have more spins and more time for the effect to occur. A faster moving ball will get fewer spins and less effect.

This brings up another question:
Ball A: 70 MPH over 40 feet. Ball spins 5 times
Ball B: 50 MPH over 40 feet. Ball spins 5 times

Which has more break?

............

Question: Which breaks more over the same distance:

Ball A: 65 MPH and 600 RPM
Ball B: 45 MPH and 600 RPM

If somebody puts this in a book please give me some credit for it. I am a former Engineer and a Middle school Technology teacher now. I actually use this in my dicussions with kids when we cover the links between science, math and practical observation.

Class is now in session.

Over the 40 feet the slower ball will break more because it has more flight time. The key to late break is tight, fast spin with good velocity. Faster spin changes the shape of the path and velocity limits the amount and time of break. Manage both and you can fool batters.

1) More flight time = more pronounced break.

Think of this test: Drop a ball off the edge of a table then push the ball off the table and it will take the same amount of time to hit the floor. That is the maximum flight time (we'll call that 'time') regardless of the forward speed (we'll call that 'velocity') of the ball. Now push the ball lightly off the table and track/graph the arcing path of the ball. Repeat this with a harder push and then an even harder push. The thing that is changing is the distance the ball travels outward from the table. The arcing paths/graphs show the 'break' at different velocities. Take those graphs and measure them over the same 12" from the table. The higher velocity will always break later because you have a shorter flight time to look at it. At high speed the path in the first 12" could be almost straight out from the table. The time for each arc is the same but the distance covered and position of the ball are affected by the velocity.

2) How to affect the graph/path. You could throw the ball up or down more changing the path but that would be obvious to somebody at the recieving end, but what if we could get the ball to cause itself to change the path it actually follows? Watch a pro bowler curve a ball on the lane. Now they use friction on the waxed lane where a pitcher must use air pressure (the Magnus effect) but the principle is the same.

The bowler will give the ball 'velocity' and the amount of spin determines how much change to the path (we'll call that 'break'). For the first half of the lane the ball goes straight toward the gutter but once the spin 'bites' the path starts changing and the ball moves toward the pins. The path is an arc and over time the curl to the arc gets tighter. Some bowlers have arcs that almost look like 90 degree turns! A certain spin rate will give a certain arc. I have no real numbers but let's say at 18rev per sec a ball direction changes 1.25", 20 rps is 1.5", 22 rps is 2" and 25 rps is 3" (it would not be a linear relationship). Then for every second the ball is moving the path changes.

3) Putting it all together... we are covering 38-40' from pitcher's release to the plate. A faster ball will cover that distance quicker and the path will be straighter than a slow ball. Batter perceives that straighter path and predicts the location for a strike. Pitcher spins the ball and the path can change. With the same spin rate a slower ball 'bites' halfway to the batter while the faster ball covers 3/4 of the distance before 'biting'. Same amount of time for the arc to start but the higher velocity is now closer to the batter. Ergo, a later breaking ball. Although it bites closer to the batter it will not not break as much so there can still be some contact = foul ball strike two.

If the spin rate is faster then the break is 'harder' (the path changes more). The higher velocity ball can now move even more after the bite. A late breaking harder biting ball. Batter cannot perceive difference between 18 rps and 25 rps and the ball moves more = wiff, strike three. Enter the 'K' for the junk baller.

My DD has had great success varying spin (18-25 rps) at the mid 50's in velocity. Her flame thrower 'friend' spins at 12-15rps and has virtually no movement at high 50's and low 60's velocity. Once girls get over the speed they see how easy they can predict the path of a straight ball. Just like turning the jugs pitching machine to max.

 

[starsnuffer]

Sorry eastcoast, you are wrong. The horizontal movement of the ball for both pitches is identical. Here is the NASA link: CurveBall Expert Version - 1.7e beta Doesn't matter if it is a 100MPH or 30 MPH, the amount of horizontal break is the same as long as the spin is the same.

The Magnus Force (the force that makes the ball curve) is directly proportional to the speed of the ball. The faster the ball, the greater the force. But, the faster the ball, the less time the ball has to move. They cancel each other out. The only factor in horizontal movement is the spin on the ball and the direction of spin.

This is exactly what causes the illusion of "late break".

As the speed of the pitch decelerates over the 35 feet or so between the release and the batter, the spin remains nearly constant. So, where the ball might be traveling 65mph at release it may only break 1 inch per 10' of pitch distance, as the ball slows to 58mph as it crosses the plate, it moves more per 10' of pitch distance because the Magnus force has more time in which to affect the ball.

Now someone give Ray some real deceleration and speed per 10 feet of pitch distance so we can see some real math as opposed to all this absolute theory talk.

-W

 

[RubberBiscuit]

Sluggers - I think you might be seeing what my machine here is seeing in that whatever parameter I change in that curveball program it always comes out with the same result...... Gotta love computers....



I think of it, correctly or incorrectly, like I see a bowlers finger-tip spin ball moving down the alley. (acknowledging that in a pitch there is air resistance in play and in bowling it's more the alley resistance)

If the bowler throws it too hard the ball never allows the side forces to take over the momentum of the ball moving straight forward and essentially the speed does not allow break (sideways movement - over that distance).

Now if the ball is thrown at that right slower speed (same spin) the side-forces from the spin now have a chance to affect the balls movement over that longer time span and reduced forward momentum.

To me the "late breaking" breaking pitch is the one that is fast enough to travel the first length appearing a fastball, then it has lots of spin on it to induce the movement later in the pitch distance. And since it's a lot of spin it breaks well even though it's late....

(that's my Mickey Mouse interpretation)

 

[Bill S]

Hopefully this will help simplify things..

 

[Ken B]

I've got nothing scientific to back this up, but here goes:

I think perceived late break is less about whether the arc is uniform or progressive. I think its the speed, trajectory and good spin that makes the first 2/3rds of the distance covered seem straight, then as it finishes we see the change in path, or the ball jumping. A slower, bigger arc is picked up farther out and easier to judge.