Langenfeld as a protype softball swing

[batsics1]

On Page 32 of the Model Swings thread Ken wrote, “There is an interesting phenomenon right after the point of contact. Normally when I look at video of good hitters they get to the point of contact with the bat parallel to the front of the plate, then the top hand takes over and starts swinging the end of the bat around toward the pitcher. In this video, after contact, she maintains that parallel position for a couple more frames, like she's pushing the bat forward before "snapping" the head of the bat forward.

Not exactly ideal, in my opinion, but it seems to work for her”.

Until recently I would have agreed with Ken’s comment that what happens after contact is not ideal. But, I have begun to wonder if the objectives of hitting a softball are somewhat different than hitting a baseball. To me there are several distinct differences between hitting in softball and hitting in baseball: it doesn’t require a significant amount of power to hit a homerun in softball; the dimensions of the field mean that the gaps are much smaller – one has to be able to more precisely direct the ball to hit safely; and, probably the most overlooked difference is that the pitcher releases the ball around 40’ from the plate and can release the ball from the extreme edges of the width of the rubber which create much more severe angles of attack through the strike zone than in baseball. To me the objective in baseball is more power oriented while softball is more precision.

It seems to me that Langenfeld demonstrates pretty sound PCR characteristics to contact – by that I mean observable characteristics rather than teaching methodology. Maybe there is something to what she is doing including what she does after contact. I think one could make a case for how she arrives at deep contact as the power component and the way she pushes through contact and releases the top hand late as the precision component.

Essentially, she is a contact hitter with power which I think is the objective in softball vs. a power hitter who can hit for average which is the objective in baseball. Lagenfeld may be a prototype of what the softball swing should look like versus a pure baseball mechanic if for no other reason than she is built like the average softball player and can hit for power and average.

At any rate, I am curious if others think that there are sufficient differences in hitting a softball versus baseball that would dictate adapting the fundamental mechanics of a generic high-level baseball swing. I am also curious if her swing to deep contact fits well within the various hitting ideologies discussed on this site. And finally, how one might adapt the mechanics of the various ideologies to meet a different hierarchy of objectives for the game of softball.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

It seems to me that Langenfeld demonstrates pretty sound PCR characteristics to contact – by that I mean observable characteristics rather than teaching methodology.

Maybe PCR but not PCRW (where W is Whip and is very important but often overlooked).

The angle between the bat and forearm at the POC (where the bat and forearm are not aligned) is suboptimal and the whole post-POC arm movement is suggestive of push disconnection rather than good whip.

As you suggest, that may work for some hitters in some situations, but IMO it's atypical.

 

[batsics1]

Chris,
Why is it suboptimal, more specifically in what context?

My premise for this discussion is: how does the softball swing evolve? I had been thinking about this for some time. Tom wrote in the Model Swings thread, “But this pattern has never predominated in MLB. In my opinion this is because it does not have the necessary early batspeed and late adjustability for high level woodbat games.”

My response is who cares. More to the point is the fact that our goal isn’t to emulate the mechanics of a high level wood bat game, but rather take from it what is fundamentally sound and determine what has to be adapted, if anything, to develop a high level softball swing.

This is a different premise than boys and girls are different or that softball and baseball are different therefore the softball swing must be completely different – as in the past. But, I am inclined to believe that the pendulum has shifted too far in the opposite direction towards the baseball swing is the softball swing. I think the answer to an elite softball swing is likely somewhere in the middle.

The games are different and therefore an optimized softball swing will look somewhat different than a baseball swing much the same way that we can take lessons from the golf swing and apply them to the baseball or softball swings. But, because there are different objectives, priorities, constraints, etc., the different sports will produce swings that will have somewhat different looks.

I chose to highlight Lagenfeld’s swing because it is an overt example of certain aspects of swing mechanics that have been described as suboptimal. But, I see these mechanics to some degree in Jen Yee’s swing.

I also see it in other swings such as Megan Wiggins’ and wonder if it is to some degree what allows her to do this:

and this.

So, the question becomes: are we seeing the practical optimization of the baseball swing by the actual players (and their coaches) to meet the specific demands of the game of softball or are these just silly girls who are poorly coached and just don’t understand how a high level swing should be executed?

Put a better way, what can we learn from the Model Swings thread as opposed to what would we do to improve their swings? Within that thread are some of the absolute best in the game. They produce at a level above MLB players. There must be something to their success that we all can learn from.

The ultimate question is: will the optimized softball swing sacrifice a certain amount of power for better bat control and plate coverage to meet the specific demands of softball and what will it look like?

I don’t know the answer, but I think it is worth considering and discussing. My guess is that an elite softball swing will inevitably look similar but different than an elite MLB swing.

 

[druer]

What terminology would people refer to Jen Yee's back foot on her swing?

 

[tom.guerry]

batsic said:

Tom wrote in the Model Swings thread, “But this pattern has never predominated in MLB. In my opinion this is because it does not have the necessary early batspeed and late adjustability for high level woodbat games.”

Bat-

this was about the PCR swing similar to UCLA's Bates, which is not like this swing, You should study until you see the difference.

http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-hitting-technical/2785-model-swings-28.html#post32259

PCR tilt and turn maintain box alligator arm power swing with shoulders works fine in FP with hot bats.

Langenfeld has early batspeed and late adjustability and uses hips and hands and the action you see at contact is exaggerated by bat/ball mass at impact very different from MLB/woodbat baseball collision.

Her swing is HLBB pattern, not some strange hybrid.

Probably helps to have Fernandez as a batting instructor and practice pitcher.

 

[Dragoncoach]

What terminology would people refer to Jen Yee's back foot on her swing?

looks like slight toe push, then wt transfer.

 

[druer]

looks like slight toe push, then wt transfer.

So you wouldn't define that as "squish the bug"?

Describe what "Squish the bug" means to others then. That is what I teach in terms of movement but the term I've used is "Squish the bug" for what the back foot does, and that "term" obviously doesn't sit well. Trying to get a better description, and understand what it is that others think that term means, if this isn't it what they are thinking it is.

 

[SBFAMILY]

None of the above squish. The first girl steps open and I'm not a fan of that. It is a weight transfer and keeping the weight inside the back leg. Think in terms of throwing a softball, hitting a golf ball, throwing a foot ball, hitting a tennis ball. Watch the back foot, no one squishs. Little girls do all the time, because that is the cue they have been told. Take a softball and put it on the outside of the back foot and when they swing the ball is kicked out. That is Squishing the bug. If I put a softball by the back foot of any of the above girls you will see no true squishing. I like to draw a line in RVP by the back foot to show kids , none of the baseball players or softball players squish. It was just a bad cue these kids were told growing up. I did a clinic with a group fo 12 year old and every one of them told me they had been told to SQUISH.

 

[tom.guerry]

squish the bug would be turning the rear foot counter-clockwise (bird's eye view) on the ball of the foot which would knock over something on the ground sitting next to the foot in the stance.

in an HLBB swing there is anti-bugsquish/heel leads toe/clcokwise type rotation of the back foot whichthen turns heel to sky with drag of toe behind front leg (as torso decelerates) then rotation of heel back the other way in reaction to release at contact.

 

[Amy in AZ.]

It is a squish, from my view point and I taught it most of my life. It would not be unusual for the young ladies pictured, to be in the age group the squishes the bug.