java

[javasource]

Java

I recently had the pleasure of viewing all three videos, I am puzzled by a couple things, in the pushback video you state do not let the heel drop,

Absolutely. I've found that in training pitchers over the years, I can get their 'fast feet' moving better if they don't let the rear heel sink. You'll find that the whole premotion is a little smoother... less 'pauses', if you will. Also, I've found that the centering aspect and pawing aspects that I desire in pitching happen automatically this way... as the feet need to get moving.

... then in the two versions of two step videos you say drop the heel to get stretch, which I agree with.

Yep... because once the pitcher has the ingrained proper motions IN THE DRIVE LEG/FOOT AND TIMING OF THE BACKSWING/OVERLAP down, we can then use the 2-step to work on the articulations of the stride leg... which involves sinking the rear heel, and keeping it that way until the drive foot is ready to do work against the plate.

As you'll see, our thinking is along the same lines... in that we both recognize the importance of the what the legs do during the premotion. There is a true 'feeling' to the Pushback drill that I want the pitcher to feel... which is to get their body moving forward before they get too far into their backswing. By not sinking the stride heel... they are instructed to resist firmly with the stride leg... so that their body starts moving forward the moment that stride leg contacts the ground. IF... the heel sinks, they will not experience this correctly. IF... you do this correctly, you will undoubtedly feel rushed in your backswing... which as it sounds, you've not felt yet. I think you'll really be jazzed as to what this adds to the timing... and by performing repetition and making this drill her new motion, making the adjustments of training the stride leg in the 2-steps are relatively simple. Also... detachment from the rubber early is a result of establishing a forward lean/momentum early.

I find it hard to do the push back drill without dropping the stride leg heel, I think I'm not sequencing the drill properly, can you touch on when you activate or move the push foot during the push back drill.

**** VERY IMPORTANT****

Absolutely... as overlap is all about opposing motions, I find it very simple to tell the pitcher to start with their glove and throwing hand together at their waist. I tell them to begin the Pushback drill by sending their hands out to head level, together... WHILE stepping back... just like the pitcher in the video illustrates. Those motions are opposing... hands forward... stride leg back. Teaching 'overlap' became much easier for me once I discovered this handy way to begin the drill... as the rest, just happens.

One important note: During the backswing... make sure the arm straightens... I've seen a few people now do this with more of a bent elbow backswing (as it feels rushed), which can really screw up the timing.

Lastly, I get asked if pitchers dislike changing their premotion... and oddly, I've never had anyone opposed to it in session. My answer is simple for those that ask... it's a drill. It will make you a better pitcher. If that's what you want, the adjustment is easy.

Thanks for all your feedback! Really appreciate your contribution. ~JS

 

[Fastpitch Coach]

Thanks for clarifying.

I don't like the folded up elbow back swing either. It looks slow as if its unfolding in the way out. I don't care for that either.

Hillhouse says don't let arm get straight and keep arm- elbow bent...his reasoning is the arm will not get back to bent again as needed. I have found this to be false and have actually experienced the opposite affect.

Thanks

 

[3DD'sDAD]

I believe hillhouse to be correct. His reference at least as I understand it is to keep the arm long and loose, not straight at ANY point in the arm circle. His style of bringing the glove and ball back (the bent elbow I think you are referring to) is just that-style. It is his way of loading. As java pointed out once, the arm angle of the upper arm is similar in both styles, one just has the arm bent at the elbow.

 

[javasource]

I believe hillhouse to be correct. His reference at least as I understand it is to keep the arm long and loose, not straight at ANY point in the arm circle.

3DD,

To this I would disagree, respectfully... to both you and Bill. I'm sure you both know I mean no disrespect... I'm hoping to take him up on his beer offer soon.

Anyway... what the elbow does during this drill IS of consequence.

In pitching, straightening the elbow in no way impacts the circle IF... the pitcher understands and utilizes adduction to their benefit. You could be as locked out as can be... and still regain some level of flexion.

For example, stand with both arms completely extended like your doing the YMCA dance... and you're the 'Y'. With palms both up...

From this position, adduct forcefully, WITH YOUR ELBOWS inward... as you should. Flexion just happens. There's no magic angle, just one good enough to chain through. Adduction is in no way a movement performed from below the elbow. Adduction is a movement that originates in the upper-arm... and PULLED inward by the end of that part... the elbow.

However...

If a pitcher is all 'shoulder', she'll get straight-armed anyway.
If a pitcher keeps palm up, the biceps remain engaged, and act as flexors in the elbow.
If a pitcher rotates palm to 3rd, or down... the triceps engage, and act as extensors in the elbow.
If the elbow is the driving force, the more distal component (the forearm) will lag.

The elbow is of great consequence after 3. No sooner.

These aren't really arguable items... and I mean that in the least controversial way. Just the way the human body is wired...
...and then our learned knowledge of these things...
...and then our proper application of these concepts.

Locking the arm out is something I've admittedly changed my opinion on over the years - in that, doing so 'early' - does not impact the 'circle' in any shape or form - UNLESS - the pitcher is sub-optimally pitching.

Not sure Bill really checks in here much, but I think he might agree, or be willing to consider this thought.

I do use backswings in these drills, as they enforce a feel and concept that is worth understanding. All those I work with use a backswing in this drill... even those that don't in their full motion... because, like you said, it's just a style. Best, ~JS

 

[Westwind]

"I do use backswings in these drills, as they enforce a feel and concept that is worth understanding. All those I work with use a backswing in this drill... even those that don't in their full motion... because, like you said, it's just a style. Best, ~JS"

Java, a year or so ago we eliminated dd's too random, unrepeatable backswing. Looking back, I wish instead we would have worked on a Ueno style backswing.... that type of backswing looks very repeatable.

DD is currently using the glove over right hip like Bill teaches. A she progresses do you think working on a backswing in a future off season is worth doing or is it really just style? Maybe the answer will be easily found when we start working on the above drills.

EDITED TO ADD:
looks like 3dd and I were typing at same time... My question is pretty similar to his

 

[3DD'sDAD]

Thanks Java for the clarification. Happy New Year by the way. I wasn't really referencing the drill so much as the statement by a previous poster related to the arm being straight during the back swing. I believe the back swing to be a required piece of the mechanics but the "how" to be left to the pitcher as far as their style goes. Do you have a preference and if so, why?

 

[javasource]

Thanks Java for the clarification. Happy New Year by the way. I wasn't really referencing the drill so much as the statement by a previous poster related to the arm being straight during the back swing. I believe the back swing to be a required piece of the mechanics but the "how" to be left to the pitcher as far as their style goes. Do you have a preference and if so, why?

Happy New Year to you, too!

My post was in response to your comment on the backswing. Truthfully, I do like one... and do prefer it. The reason I don't like the cradle the baby style, is because the orientation of the hand/elbow while doing this recesses the elbow on the upswing. As a result, the humerus is OFTEN not in a good position to rotate over the top of the circle.... which causes to much rotation over the top. It's not to say pitchers can't use this method effectively... not saying that at all... it's just that they need to overcome that less-than-preferred biomechanical orientation of the arm... and that often leads to excessive movement in the shoulder capsule. If all of that is too much information... perhaps it's easier said that a straightened backswing (not locked out) gives them less to overcome on the upswing. I like to see pitchers AFTER 3... start to SLIGHTLY elevate the humerus... and they do this by SLIGHTLY lifting the elbow. It's kind of my way of loading the adduction movement that happens once they pass over-top. It is easy to identify, as it is visually represented by what many on here refer to as a 'hook'... or what BM referred to as "Show It-Throw It" position.

Hope your DD's are doing well!

 

[javasource]

DD is currently using the glove over right hip like Bill teaches. A she progresses do you think working on a backswing in a future off season is worth doing or is it really just style? Maybe the answer will be easily found when we start working on the above drills.

I like it when pitchers are willing to experiment with different feels/styles. Not only does this show their interest to make adjustments to their style, but their willingness to get better. So, to directly answer your question... yes. I do think it's worth trying out for a bit. I think you'll find that in using one, timing corrections (if an issue) are much easier to address. These improvements can really enhance her overall pitch. Give it a shot. Perhaps she'll get better by doing so... even if after making improvements she reverts to that 'style'. To me, that's a win, win. Best, ~JS

 

[3DD'sDAD]

I do believe that there is merit in hiding the grip from opposing hitters and coaches in the higher levels. Baseball pitchers hide the ball as long as they can. Perhaps I am a bit old school from my days of playing fastpitch so I like the cradle style. But given what Java has explained I will be sure to focus more on the elbow to ensure that dd strives for the best of the two. She actually toyed with the "scare the bear" style some years ago but has always returned to the cradle style. But kinda like "sneaky pitching" sometimes she changes things up during the game. That's always fun. Never know what to expect.

Note: after a session with Bill Hillhouse a couple years ago her cradle style was reinforced and she continues with that style to this day.

 

[Me_and_my_big_mouth]

I like it when pitchers are willing to experiment with different feels/styles. Not only does this show their interest to make adjustments to their style, but their willingness to get better. So, to directly answer your question... yes. I do think it's worth trying out for a bit. I think you'll find that in using one, timing corrections (if an issue) are much easier to address. These improvements can really enhance her overall pitch. Give it a shot. Perhaps she'll get better by doing so... even if after making improvements she reverts to that 'style'. To me, that's a win, win. Best, ~JS

My DD was taught to keep the ball in her glove on her hip - not "show" the ball to batters. After watching your videos and trying to get her to implement solid fundamentals, we asked her to try the backswing. She's actually liking it (but I'm not convinced she understands the timing quite yet). We found that the pushback drill got her to feel the overlap you talk about, and the feeling of momentum and moving forward. She was really hunching over and bending her knees. It was nice to use the comparisons with your slo-mo girls and show her what her body was doing. What she thought was a sprinter's lunge was actually just her bending at the waist and sticking her booty out - but it didn't give her the push she needed (I've included a "before" of what she was doing). She's working hard to correct it - but I think sinking in the heels and rocking has been the hardest thing, along with getting the big "pawing" motion. I'm throwing up some before and afters, just for reference. With the pushback drill, she discovered that now she has a hard time landing correctly. Just keep moving to the next thing.

Sidenote: I am seriously terrible at this gif thing. I'm sure it's operator error - but you can see her bend and then how she's trying to correct it from the cruddy screenshot I did. Anyhoo - this was supposed to be an answer to OP who asked about pushback drill and function. We've seen positive changes.

BEFORE:
<a href="http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/brandiulrey/media/animation-2015-01-03_08-10-46-209_zpsm0kfjgvy.gif.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah21/brandiulrey/animation-2015-01-03_08-10-46-209_zpsm0kfjgvy.gif~original" border="0" alt="before pushback drill photo animation-2015-01-03_08-10-46-209_zpsm0kfjgvy.gif"/></a>

AFTER:
<a href="http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/brandiulrey/media/animation-2015-01-03_08-14-02-866_zpstnumbmzv.gif.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah21/brandiulrey/animation-2015-01-03_08-14-02-866_zpstnumbmzv.gif~original" border="0" alt="pushback drill photo animation-2015-01-03_08-14-02-866_zpstnumbmzv.gif"/></a>