IR Motion - RPS and Velocity

[WillyT812]

Question for the IR gurus. First thanks to all for the patience extended in bringing me up to speed. I’m working with a couple of girls doing 9:00 k-drills emphasizing palm up, sometimes even trying to get them to exaggerate the palm up with a slight tilt towards first (RHP). Typically I’m the catcher so my view is limited at to what’s going on but at least once a session I use the iPad to video them and review using Coaches’ Eye. We pitch with a striped ball so what we’re looking for is a nice 1 to 7 spin axis and nice spin rate. One is getting the hang of it better than the other at the moment but number two has her good pitches as well using IR.

Here’s my question. When a pitcher whips harder (faster) does this naturally lead to a better spin speed? Are those two connected –whip speed and rotation speed? My thinking is this, rps and overall speed is directly linked to how long they can delay the forearm rotation and the power with which the blast through that rotation. If the palm starts turning too early then most the spin and speed is lost. About every twenty pitches or so from the k-drill the ball comes flying out with great velocity, spin, and a perfect axis--pulling the ball downward as it comes to me. When it’s really nice you can actually hear the ball whizzing from the rps. When this happens I tell them (right or wrong) great delay! (meaning they waited to the last microsecond rotate the wrist thereby causing the beautifully pitched ball). When it’s a slow and wobbly rotation I tell them they’re pushing the ball…stop it. They’re getting better and better but we only have about three more months to put this all together. Just wanted to check with you guys to make sure I understand it correctly. Whip with a leading elbow-delay rotating the ball from a skyward position for as long as possible. The rotation/snap/explosion is right at or in front of hip. There’s nothing I can tell them about spinning faster other than…whip harder…rotate when forearm brushes hip. Right?

 

[WillyT812]

I think another way to explain what I think is this...the closer they get the ball to the six o'clock position with the ball facing at least third then the forearm is maximally loaded. There comes a point where the arm can no longer take it (almost always before the six o'clock position) and unloads that energy into the rotation we're all striving for. This is why so many on here say you can't really teach it, we can explain it but to know it is to feel it. I have no way to tell them more spin except to say...whip harder...delay rotation.

 

[GatorGirl]

I know that this has been shared a million times, but this is such and amazing vid and it depicts exactly what you are saying. She is almost dead at 6 before her hand turns. Show this to the girls.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Not an i/r guru...maybe not even be a fully focused follower, but I am agreeing with it's use, because I was seeing it, but only in two pitchers in our area, & was @ nationals... I'm looking into it mostly for understanding its limitations right now. My experience was... it had just the distraction factor, as with anything else that robot hitters aren't programmed for. Similar to simply putting in a lefty for a couple innings. We got shut out by it... but the i/r pitcher went to her CU ...(2 in a row) on DD... as she was the only one making contact. There wasn't any i/r in her BFCU....Anyways on to the stuff you are calling a can't teach

Sounds like your up against a dead line... hopefully your hitting and fielding is ahead of schedule.... This was my first question too. Do you want the ball facing 3rd ??? I never got into "why the sky"..Getting the answer was as convoluted as my video workflow :{)) There is a sticky, and lots of subscribers, but no indexers :{)) I would hope to think that for total comprehension, you follow the trail of PM's to phone calls ??? Anyways hoping your a hitting guru.... I used the understanding of coil...holding to 3rd & stepping out from underneath the hands in toe tap...(the negative) to explain that, once it is understood in hitting & throwing...its a smoother transition into pitching. My issue is it's absence as a motor, and the hybrid teaching of explosion jumping... I guess I just don't like the thoughts of someone telling my DD to jump, leaving me to calibrate ...How high, How far ??? lol

For spin, we used a hockey puck. Stand it up perfect w/ middle finger, then the index. Make sure everyone working with the puck can catch

 

[knightsb]

what we’re looking for is a nice 1 to 7 spin axis and nice spin rate.

From a previous BM post:

If you haven't seen this yet........I posted this "gear" a long time ago to show the "learning spin" of a good I/R motion........

 

[knightsb]

I think another way to explain what I think is this...the closer they get the ball to the six o'clock position with the ball facing at least third then the forearm is maximally loaded. There comes a point where the arm can no longer take it (almost always before the six o'clock position) and unloads that energy into the rotation we're all striving for. This is why so many on here say you can't really teach it, we can explain it but to know it is to feel it. I have no way to tell them more spin except to say...whip harder...delay rotation.

It is a process done over time. I used to strive for perfection at every practice with my DD. She recently turned 15 and as she gets older she becomes more self aware of her body and body positions. Don't make the mistake I did and expect every aspect you try to teach to be perfect when working with your student or DD. DD and I watch a lot of video of pitcher and hitters, we watch as much softball as we can. The more video I show her of Monica, Jennie, Amanda, Cat, etc, the more she understands what we are trying to accomplish. My DD used to have pure bullet spin and she was pitching using IR, and it was like this for quite a while until she learned to control her release better. For us, it just to time for it to click with her. We always pitch with a striped ball for immediate feedback. Good luck.

 

[Rick Pauly]

Willy
I think you are seeing something I see all the time relative to dropball spin rates.

In almost every case when a new pitcher comes to me with a "roll drop" we will perform a little experiment. I have her throw several "roll drop" pitches while measuring spin rate with the Rev Fire......then I have her throw her low fastball and measure the spin rate. Typically the fastball will be 1-3 RPS better than the roll drop spin rate. It is kind of an eye opener for lots of girls and their parents. Additionally, we video the release actions of the roll drop and fastball......it is very difficult to see any differences in the movement paths of the wrist and fingers....or in their I/R action. And we do use tape on the ball to verify horizontal axis for both the roll drop and fastball.

One thing thing that seems to jump out at me is that "trained movements" like a roll drop do not react as quickly as untrained/natural movements.
Your throw harder/faster suggestion will typically yield better dropball spin rates and a more relaxed the release action will yield better spin rates.......sounds like an oxymoron.... "relaxed" ...when you are trying to deliver energy into a ball.

If you are measuring spin rates a decent high school dropball spin rate is 18 RPS and a decent college spin rate is 22 RPS.

Couple things about dropball movement: the spin axis is significantly more important than spin rate; release angle/release point are also significantly more important than spin rate. One of the best college dropballs I've coached had dropball spin rates of 16-17 RPS....but the young lady was 6'3" tall and had great release angle and of course her height helped with a nice high release point.

 

[WillyT812]

Thanks everyone again. I've read and reread BM's IR in the classroom three times now. It was after this that I got on a quest to find high-speed video of the release from the nine o'clock through five o'clock. The only decent video is the of Amanda S, the one GatorGirl posted on this thread.

Strategy. I've always considered myself a hitting coach over a pitching coach, I only got into the PC game because if I didn't develop them myself no one would in the Shreveport Bossier area I use to live in. Through the Christmas break I'll start up hitting camps for the girls. What's different over here during the high school season is everyone goes to the tournament. So, this means I can work work work on hitting up until the season starts and on through till playoffs, I need them driving balls as the playoff starts. None of them have ever had detailed and structured hitting sessions. They're in for a surprise to say the least. I'll have to work on fielding during the season. I've got one of the pitchers roughed in pretty good, she'll be fine. She'll only have trouble with the girls she faces that can actually hit, which are far and few around here. But to win it all, the Europeans for DODEA, she'll need at deadly drop ball with a nice change up. This is where IR comes in, great spin; the right spin, good velocity...something batters can only chip at...if that.

 

[WillyT812]

Rick, I mentioned Amanda's video but just know, in my iPad I have four videos I use for comparison with Coaches Eye. The ESPN Jenny Finch video from the side view, Amanda's, and two from you. Your 600 fps is pretty darn good. I would just like one shot from the shoulders to the mid thigh as the arm comes through...at 600fps.

 

[WillyT812]

This has been linked before but incase the newbies have missed it.

http://www.revfire.com/files/2011_NFCA_Showcase_RevFire_Spin_Performance.pdf

RevFiire partnered with NPF a few years ago but I can't find any data from that partnership. Maybe someone else can.