I agree with a lot of your points, but in my experience your point about travel ball players being selfish and only in it for themselves is folderol. I have seen countless examples of girls playing out of position in order to help the team, making sacrifices to help the team, etc. My own daughter (always weak to share personal experiences when making an argunment but I can't help myself) was the backup catcher this summer. She caught about 10-12 games, including elimination games at PGF nationals. She was 17 this summer AND HAD NEVER CAUGHT BEFORE. But the team was in a bind and she was one of about 4 girls on the team to volunteer for the position. A position they will NEVER play in college. And the thing is, I have seen it over and over. I've seen the shortstop pitch a few games due to injuries. I've seen pitchers who are quite capable hitters, nevertheless accept the fact that there are better hitters on the team and don't say one word about not being able to hit. I could go on and on all day long about the commitment to team play that I've seen from travel ball players. Again, you make some great points about high school ball that I agree with but your assessment of travel ball players does not match my observations over the last 7 years. Agree to disagree.
In defense of HS ball
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I agree with a lot of your points, but in my experience your point about travel ball players being selfish and only in it for themselves is folderol. I have seen countless examples of girls playing out of position in order to help the team, making sacrifices to help the team, etc. My own daughter (always weak to share personal experiences when making an argunment but I can't help myself) was the backup catcher this summer. She caught about 10-12 games, including elimination games at PGF nationals. She was 17 this summer AND HAD NEVER CAUGHT BEFORE. But the team was in a bind and she was one of about 4 girls on the team to volunteer for the position. A position they will NEVER play in college. And the thing is, I have seen it over and over. I've seen the shortstop pitch a few games due to injuries. I've seen pitchers who are quite capable hitters, nevertheless accept the fact that there are better hitters on the team and don't say one word about not being able to hit. I could go on and on all day long about the commitment to team play that I've seen from travel ball players. Again, you make some great points about high school ball that I agree with but your assessment of travel ball players does not match my observations over the last 7 years. Agree to disagree.
I didn't say that travel ball players were selfish and only in it for themselves.
I said that those two players in that particular anecdote were being selfish in that particular setting, and that travel ball had shaped their mindset, making it hard for them to buy in to the goals of the high school team.
I'm not criticizing travel ball or TB players. Nothing wrong with players who look for the best team and situation for themselves. That's what TB is. HS ball requires a different mindset, IMO.
BTW, I have said this before - but I will keep repeating it....
I have no idea why we have associated education and elite sports together for high school and college in North America. No one else in the world does this - why the path to 'elite' or the 'elite' level is through college is bizarre. I don't know of anywhere else in the world where the term 'student athlete' has any meaning (which isn't surprisingly since it is a term the NCAA came up with to get away with the whole amateur BS argument).
I have no idea why we have associated education and elite sports together for high school and college in North America. No one else in the world does this - why the path to 'elite' or the 'elite' level is through college is bizarre. I don't know of anywhere else in the world where the term 'student athlete' has any meaning (which isn't surprisingly since it is a term the NCAA came up with to get away with the whole amateur BS argument).
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"How many people watch you give a final exam? [About fifty is the reply.] Well, I have 50,000 watch me give mine - every Saturday!" -- To Texas A&M Professor Tommy Mayo when questioned about his emphasis on winning and his salary. ~ Bear Bryant
- Feb 7, 2014
- 553
- 43
Yup, couldn't agree more.
obbay
Banned
This has been an interesting discussion, helping me see a benefit to HS ball that I had never realized.
As far as TB, in DD's program the Gold team is full of players who are there for the team. DD played a few tournaments with them this year and hopes to be on the team next year. she loves playing with a team that is together because they love the game. the team she was assigned to this year did not. "shoot me now, please!" is what the coaches DD tweeted from the bench before our last game. she probably spoke for half the team. She and several others were on DD's HS team.
In HS, the team is a continuation of social drama and the coach (squish the bug, etc) enables this attitude by rewarding players based on their popularity. while he does recognize some players having stronger skills and work ethics, he has no qualms about assigning those characteristics when speaking of a less skilled but more popular player. He gave an award to one such player at the end of year banquet, while a more deserving, more valuable player got no recognition whatsoever.
So yes, a HS team can be more of a team than a TB team, but only if the team wants to be. I like it when the positives of HS play are brought to light as that gives me hope for the remaining two years!
As far as TB, in DD's program the Gold team is full of players who are there for the team. DD played a few tournaments with them this year and hopes to be on the team next year. she loves playing with a team that is together because they love the game. the team she was assigned to this year did not. "shoot me now, please!" is what the coaches DD tweeted from the bench before our last game. she probably spoke for half the team. She and several others were on DD's HS team.
In HS, the team is a continuation of social drama and the coach (squish the bug, etc) enables this attitude by rewarding players based on their popularity. while he does recognize some players having stronger skills and work ethics, he has no qualms about assigning those characteristics when speaking of a less skilled but more popular player. He gave an award to one such player at the end of year banquet, while a more deserving, more valuable player got no recognition whatsoever.
So yes, a HS team can be more of a team than a TB team, but only if the team wants to be. I like it when the positives of HS play are brought to light as that gives me hope for the remaining two years!
We live in "The New World". We, as a country, were not set in our "club" ways like the rest of the world because there were not enough communities large enough back then to support competitive club teams. As the country grew someone figured out that the best concentration of young adults capable of producing competitive sports teams was college. They figured out over time that you could actually increase the student body by producing top notch sports teams. High school soon follwed. Now that the country's population is over 300 million, the reason school sports continues is simple.......TRADITION. And it works! Many top athletes from all over the world that wish to go to college come to the United States. Many top athletes from the Olympics went to college in the United States to compete in their sport.
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Cannonball
Ex "Expert"
- Feb 25, 2009
- 4,882
- 113
HS athletics is the fabric of the community throughout most of the US. I don't know where you all live. I know that here, HS sports are extremely important. I've alluded to that and that HS softball is really competitive here. In fact, your land values are directly tied to not only the academics of a school system but how well the HS does in various sports.
Absolutely when you take the statement as a whole instead of picking out the single comment. So, in your opinion a kid that is the ace pitcher and starting SS on an upper tier TB team is actually getting the same thing from playing HS ball that she is out of TB? Go a step further and couple that with on the HS team there is a kid playing SS or pitching that is no where near as talented as any of the other kids on the team, yet they are in that spot because of who their parents happen to be and you might get the point I was making... Like I said, the kid that is relegated to playing RF because her dad happens to work at the feed mill but has more talent and is proven better than the kids that have the starting spot is getting nothing out of HS ball... It is HS ball politics and it is the reason that many HS programs are struggling now - take the politics out and HS ball is not at all bad...
I have no issue with kids having to learn a new position or wait their turn when they are beaten out by other kids... The kids see it, the parents see it... However, I do have an issue with a kid making the team or being given a starting spot just because her dad happens to be president of the PTA or one of the "founding fathers"...
again, in NY and probably other strong teacher union states, teachers get first dibs on the coaching jobs, regardless of experience or qualifications. this is a major problem in all HS sports in these states.
