- Jun 24, 2013
- 1,059
- 36
I think this is long toss:
I'd like to discuss again the pros and cons of over-distance pitching drills.
- Thread starter Rich Balswick
- Start date
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Just a couple of thoughts:
1) DD has been doing long toss/distance throwing since shortly after starting pitching lessons two years ago. I have never really noticed any issues with her release point. She seems to adapt well. And as Rick Pauly stated, she adjusts more by changing her posture than changing her release point. By comparison, DD does not get positive results when using weighted balls (the heavy ones). These seem to mess her up, so we have chosen not to use them any more.
2) DD is just now learning to throw a rise ball. She has been doing this drill with a fast ball, but I can understand how it can be more effective for the rise ball. We will now start doing it with the rise ball. Thank you for that suggestion!
3) We choose to do this drill at the end of practice. We do not do it on game day. Not knocking anyone that does. And I certainly do not know if it makes a difference. I look at this drill as one that requires an increased intensity/energy level. On pitching practice days we will go through a normal practice. Once we are comfortable with the results, we will move to a drill such as this one. We will then go through a cool off stage and call it a day. On game day we tend to focus more on getting her loose and ready, conserving as much energy as possible for the games (this was suggested by her current pitching coach).
My favorite part about this site is seeing varying view points on different topics. I have learned a lot and continue to grow. Thank you all!
1) DD has been doing long toss/distance throwing since shortly after starting pitching lessons two years ago. I have never really noticed any issues with her release point. She seems to adapt well. And as Rick Pauly stated, she adjusts more by changing her posture than changing her release point. By comparison, DD does not get positive results when using weighted balls (the heavy ones). These seem to mess her up, so we have chosen not to use them any more.
2) DD is just now learning to throw a rise ball. She has been doing this drill with a fast ball, but I can understand how it can be more effective for the rise ball. We will now start doing it with the rise ball. Thank you for that suggestion!
3) We choose to do this drill at the end of practice. We do not do it on game day. Not knocking anyone that does. And I certainly do not know if it makes a difference. I look at this drill as one that requires an increased intensity/energy level. On pitching practice days we will go through a normal practice. Once we are comfortable with the results, we will move to a drill such as this one. We will then go through a cool off stage and call it a day. On game day we tend to focus more on getting her loose and ready, conserving as much energy as possible for the games (this was suggested by her current pitching coach).
My favorite part about this site is seeing varying view points on different topics. I have learned a lot and continue to grow. Thank you all!
- Jul 31, 2011
- 76
- 8
I would just like to say at this point a big thank you to those who've responded. Rick Pauly's explanations were especially effective and brought a lot of balance to the subject along with many of you.
In the area of power pitching etc., I'm always looking for models (I look for models for everything) to support my particular understanding.
I think the story of Sandy Koufax best illustrates a concern that I've had for a long time and I think Cat Osterman is the most visible female model of what I'm wanting to start illustrating. In Sandy's story he rattled around in the Big Leagues for at least 5 years able to throw harder than anyone on the planet in total mediocrity until a catcher took Sandy to a back field somewhere and asked him to throw to him at 3/4 speed and the rest is history and with just two pitches.
Cat Osterman consistently has communicated that when she backs off 3 or 4 miles an hour, she's a better pitcher because of the kind of movement she retains at that tempo.
So, what am I saying? In the midst of the pursuit for power with long toss there needs to be a caution flag. The Major League teams are researching this area like crazy with much still very much undefined with the exception of the need for maintenance of proper posture (and understanding what that posture needs to be). I just erased a bunch of stuff.
I'M RECOGNIZING THAT IF I'M GOING TO MAKE ANY SERIOUS CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS SITE, I NEED TO PROPERLY USE VIDEO.... MY APOLOGY! When I get more in this direction together, I'll hopefully get back. HAPPY NEW YEAR !
In the area of power pitching etc., I'm always looking for models (I look for models for everything) to support my particular understanding.
I think the story of Sandy Koufax best illustrates a concern that I've had for a long time and I think Cat Osterman is the most visible female model of what I'm wanting to start illustrating. In Sandy's story he rattled around in the Big Leagues for at least 5 years able to throw harder than anyone on the planet in total mediocrity until a catcher took Sandy to a back field somewhere and asked him to throw to him at 3/4 speed and the rest is history and with just two pitches.
Cat Osterman consistently has communicated that when she backs off 3 or 4 miles an hour, she's a better pitcher because of the kind of movement she retains at that tempo.
So, what am I saying? In the midst of the pursuit for power with long toss there needs to be a caution flag. The Major League teams are researching this area like crazy with much still very much undefined with the exception of the need for maintenance of proper posture (and understanding what that posture needs to be). I just erased a bunch of stuff.
I'M RECOGNIZING THAT IF I'M GOING TO MAKE ANY SERIOUS CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS SITE, I NEED TO PROPERLY USE VIDEO.... MY APOLOGY! When I get more in this direction together, I'll hopefully get back. HAPPY NEW YEAR !
Rich,
Looking forward to your next post!
I think long toss has it's purpose. Long toss with terrible form will likely only reinforce bad form and will also probably result in aches and pains. At this point, I think L/T is helpful for those learning to maximize whip and to raise the speed threshold. I think trying to push past the point of form breakdown or overuse is bad. Used for a purpose and within moderation--there seems to be positive gains. As always, I love to be proved wrong--means I'm still learning!
Happy New Year,
Ken
Looking forward to your next post!
I think long toss has it's purpose. Long toss with terrible form will likely only reinforce bad form and will also probably result in aches and pains. At this point, I think L/T is helpful for those learning to maximize whip and to raise the speed threshold. I think trying to push past the point of form breakdown or overuse is bad. Used for a purpose and within moderation--there seems to be positive gains. As always, I love to be proved wrong--means I'm still learning!
Happy New Year,
Ken
Last edited:
- Jul 26, 2010
- 3,554
- 0
The point of long toss is that it illustrates that mechanics are what make the ball travel long distances and mechanics are what make the ball go faster. Strength and muscle do not accomplish those goals. The long toss experiment should teach kids to relax and use whip, rather then brute force and strength. This works for overhand and underhand.
Most kids think that if they're exerting more, they're throwing harder. However, if you use a radar and measure them, they generally throw faster when they're more relaxed, and if they do slow down, it's usually only 1mph that they loose from forcing their shoulder around, and they'll gain a lot of accuracy in exchange for this 1mph.
If, at any point, the pitcher is struggling physically to throw the ball longer, then the drill must end. They should be relaxing more as the distance increases, and then as the distance decreases back to the rubber, the ball is thrown with less arc and there should be a noticeable speed increase at the rubber from when the pitcher began the drill. Just like long-toss Jaeger drills, the distance must increase and then decrease throughout the progression.
Long toss doesn't work for everyone, some pitchers just can't keep their muscle out of the way. There's never a one-size fits all for every pitcher.
-W
Most kids think that if they're exerting more, they're throwing harder. However, if you use a radar and measure them, they generally throw faster when they're more relaxed, and if they do slow down, it's usually only 1mph that they loose from forcing their shoulder around, and they'll gain a lot of accuracy in exchange for this 1mph.
If, at any point, the pitcher is struggling physically to throw the ball longer, then the drill must end. They should be relaxing more as the distance increases, and then as the distance decreases back to the rubber, the ball is thrown with less arc and there should be a noticeable speed increase at the rubber from when the pitcher began the drill. Just like long-toss Jaeger drills, the distance must increase and then decrease throughout the progression.
Long toss doesn't work for everyone, some pitchers just can't keep their muscle out of the way. There's never a one-size fits all for every pitcher.
-W
Rich
Get that video camera quick. The discussions with you bring out the best in us. Need more of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get that video camera quick. The discussions with you bring out the best in us. Need more of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How about a late Christmas gift for all. I know I've posted this in the past but for any that haven't seen it this could save you the expense of a radar gun. Go to Home Depot and buy a 200ft. cloth tape measure for $15.
There is a relatively accurate correlation between distance and speed. This correlation works pretty good for girls that are throwing the 12 inch ball and can throw it 100 ft.
100 ft.= 50 mph
125 ft.= 55 mph
150 ft.= 60 mph
175 ft.= 65 mph
Every 5 feet equals one mph.....so you can interpolate between these distance.
Over the years I have found this to be accurate within 1-2 mph for a vast majority of pitchers I've measured.
A key is to throw the ball as high as possible and use riseball spin.
One other word of caution that I should have thrown out earlier.....young developing pitchers should take care not to overdo the number of distance throws in a session (8-10 is plenty).......IMO, distance throwing places the maximum stress on the body and joints.....no need to go crazy with distance throwing at a young age.
There is a relatively accurate correlation between distance and speed. This correlation works pretty good for girls that are throwing the 12 inch ball and can throw it 100 ft.
100 ft.= 50 mph
125 ft.= 55 mph
150 ft.= 60 mph
175 ft.= 65 mph
Every 5 feet equals one mph.....so you can interpolate between these distance.
Over the years I have found this to be accurate within 1-2 mph for a vast majority of pitchers I've measured.
A key is to throw the ball as high as possible and use riseball spin.
One other word of caution that I should have thrown out earlier.....young developing pitchers should take care not to overdo the number of distance throws in a session (8-10 is plenty).......IMO, distance throwing places the maximum stress on the body and joints.....no need to go crazy with distance throwing at a young age.
- Nov 29, 2009
- 2,975
- 83
Hi Rick,
Looking at your chart I would have to say it's pretty accurate. My DD did long toss her entire pitching career. At the end of her senior season in college her teammates wanted to see if she could throw the ball over the 190' outfield fence down the line. She landed it on the warning track, short hopping it into the fence.
Looking at your chart I would have to say it's pretty accurate. My DD did long toss her entire pitching career. At the end of her senior season in college her teammates wanted to see if she could throw the ball over the 190' outfield fence down the line. She landed it on the warning track, short hopping it into the fence.
