How many pitchers is too many?

[4 girl's dad]

We had a pretty good setup. One ace, that everyone knew was the money pitcher, so no drama there. Two good pitchers, that could absorb games/innings to let the ace rest ( and hide her deep into the bracket ). Two position players who were "decent" pitchers, who could pitch the easier games.

Too many pitchers is not a bad thing, as long as everyone knows their role, and knows the team strategy.

I think it's a great set up.

Little bit off topic but,

How do you get a 12u coach to do that? My DD was #4 and saw very little time. Very little. She is slower than the rest but was decent IMO.

I do understand the challenge for him that most of our pool games were seeded so we couldn't really afford to lose from the pitchers stand point but rarely was it the pitcher that lost the game.

 

[RubberBiscuit]

I think there needs to be pitch counts put in place so it forces more girls to pitch. (promotes stronger health for the kid too as they mature - less overuse injuries)

This in turn would produce more of an Auburn-type pitching staff scenario where a pitcher might get changed-out every batting order cycle.

This in turn would allow more later-blooming kids to catch-up and still be a pitcher (many of the later-bloomers get pushed aside earlier and out of pitching)

I think this year's NCAA finals was a great contrast where one team rode the crud out of their #1 and the other team had a wide "staff" of pitchers. Obviously either strategy can get ya to the final pairing.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

I think it's a great set up.

Little bit off topic but,

How do you get a 12u coach to do that? My DD was #4 and saw very little time. Very little. She is slower than the rest but was decent IMO.

I do understand the challenge for him that most of our pool games were seeded so we couldn't really afford to lose from the pitchers stand point but rarely was it the pitcher that lost the game.

Well it's not easy. But the most important thing is, your team ( and that included the parents ), must understand the whole tournament weekend has been investigated and scenarios worked out days before the first pool game.

Once we got the official "teams entered" from the director, BAM...........we are hitting the Internet to find out anything we can about the teams. And you'd be surprised with a little social media navigation, sometimes local newspapers where they are from, often just simply typing in their team name, what you can pull up.

Lots of tournaments have a website of "results" from previous tournaments. Some might only give the team winner/loser, some will give scores. Some post the entire bracket. Some post game stats, W/L pitcher, hits, errors.

Local newspapers can be a gold mine. Those "brags" often give the names of their top players and stats too. ( Sally Johnson hit .555 for the weekend, Molly Jones went 4-1 from the rubber and only gave up 6 hits for the weekend, etc, etc. )

Sometimes you can cross reference teams that have played each other somewhere down the road.

From the info you can find, you then have to start a "spreadsheet" of how to address the pool games, how other teams might address the pool games. How many games you might play on Saturday, how many games you might play on Sunday. How many games you might play if you drop into the dreaded loser's bracket.

The older posters know I came from travel baseball, before the days of DD and fast pitch. Pitcher management is the biggest key in travel baseball, so I tried to incorporate that into girls fastpitch. A bunch of games, stretched over very hot conditions (Deep South ), often lead to fatigue if 1-2 pitchers are overused to get to the final bracket games late Sunday. I wanted my top 2 pitchers to have as little innings as possible when we got there, to be fresh and strong.

Don't get me wrong, it doesn't always work out perfectly, but you'd be surprised how efficient some pitcher management works out better than simply riding the "mule" as far as she will go.

 

[coach james]

It’s ridiculous for a coach to announce who his #1, #2 etc. pitchers are. Especially at the younger ages, how are they supposed to know at August tryouts who the best pitcher will be in June?

That is ridiculous.... its even more ridiculous that you'd assume that I was implying the pecking order in August. August is when you build the team, and its in fall ball and winter indoor ball that you're allowing ALL the girls circle time. It's in May that we'll announce the pecking order.... I didn't realize how specific I should have been in previous posts!

 

[FP26]

That is ridiculous.... its even more ridiculous that you'd assume that I was implying the pecking order in August. August is when you build the team, and its in fall ball and winter indoor ball that you're allowing ALL the girls circle time. It's in May that we'll announce the pecking order.... I didn't realize how specific I should have been in previous posts!

Unfortunately not all coaches follow the same guidelines. Everyone is different. We have 3 pitchers on our current team and we converse with all of them at every tournament. They each know their roles on a week to week basis. I have witnessed coaches attempting to recruit pitchers away from other teams by telling them and their parents that they will be #1. In fact, I witnessed one coach tell two different families this same exact thing less than an hour apart. Not sure how both of them will be #1, but that is just how this particular coach is. Ironically, those families happen to be friends and compared notes later on. Neither will be moving to that particular team...

In my opinion, players/families are better off doing as much research about an organization/team/coach as possible prior to committing to that team. Assuming that any coach is going to adjust their thinking because a parent or player talks to them is naive at best. I know some coaches that are willing to listen and even request input. I would like to think that I am that way. But many do what they do and either don't want input or ask for input and then ignore it. Most coaches are scouting players before and during tryouts. Families should scout coaches the same way.

 

[ScottyDont]

Three pitchers seems like a good number to me, unless you lose one to injury...in which case two pitchers is probably not enough. You get into these double elimination tournaments where you might have to play 4-5 games in a day, what do you do without three decent pitchers?

Taking four pitchers at 14U doesn't seem like a bad idea in retrospect...as long as they all know that the top three are going to get 90% of the innings, and the pecking order is subject to change.

 

[MNDad]

That is ridiculous.... its even more ridiculous that you'd assume that I was implying the pecking order in August. August is when you build the team, and its in fall ball and winter indoor ball that you're allowing ALL the girls circle time. It's in May that we'll announce the pecking order.... I didn't realize how specific I should have been in previous posts!

My post had nothing to do with you. It was in regards to a previous statement "the coach made it clear up front who would be primary and who would be back up." about telling pitchers up front who would be #1.

 

[coach james]

My post had nothing to do with you. It was in regards to a previous statement "the coach made it clear up front who would be primary and who would be back up." about telling pitchers up front who would be #1.

My bad... I got a little defensive...lol
That's nuts to establish a pecking order BEFORE the girls have had a chance to prove themselves

 

[CMMom1740]

I think what seems to be the bottom line is the communication is key. Girls and parents are more likely to go along with a strategy when they understand it. To the poster above discussing how he researches teams, I think some (probably not all) of that can be shared with the team and then they will understand why it makes sense for Susie (the ace) to sit out until Sunday or whatever the decision may be. It's just when coaches do weird things like pull a pitcher during the last inning of a timed game that we are losing by one (running down the clock) that parents scratch their heads and wonder what on earth the strategy is.

 

[Softball scholar]

Here's what coach and pitching parents are really thinking.

Coach's perspective with rose colored glasses: Give me more and more pitchers. Here's the plan: Ill ride #1 for 75% of innings, give #2 35% of the innings, give #3 30% of the innings, Give #4 & #5 10% of the innings and put #6 in for a couple of relief innings so pitchers don't get worn out. If parents complain, too bad we're here to win. I don't give a damn how much money they spent on lessons. They get to play and hit other positions, stop complaining. If we win more bracket games because of my plan, then more innings for the pitchers. This is not a developmental team. Besides, you never can have enough pitching.


Parent of pitcher #1 glossy eyed perspective: My DD is pitching 80% of the innings and we have 6 pitchers on this team. She should be pitching only 73% of the innings. Well of course she's the best and pat my ego. But she's getting over worked, this coach is crazy. We should have better pitchers on the team, (but not better than my DD).


Parent of pitcher #2 glossy eyed perspective: My DD is only getting 10% of the innings. She is better than #1 because she had a better ERA last tournament and throws fewer walks. If we want to win, we should both get 50% of the innings, and give the rest of the wannabes the remaining scrap 15% of the innings.

Parent of pitcher #3 glossy eyed perspective: My pitching coach says my DD should be a #1 pitcher. How does she get better just pitching half a pool game. My DD should be pitching at least 33% of the innings on this team. Why does the #6 pitcher, who doesn't go to pitching lessons get as many innings as my DD.

Parent of pitcher #4. I spend $50 a week on lessons and my DD only gets to pitch in one game. That's only 5% of the innings. Why did the coach say there was only going to be 2 pitchers when we signed up. MY DD is at least as good as the #2 and #3 and they both 30% of the innings each, and my DDs changeup is just as good as the #1 pitcher who gets more 80% of the innings. The math doesn't add up.

Parent of pitcher #5. Wow my DD got to pitch a few innings. She's getting better. Why doesn't the coach let her pitch more so she continues to learn. He said this was a developmental team and that we would have only 3 pitchers. Pitcher parent #4 said all the other pitchers are getting 135% of the innings. I don't what that means. But my DD doesn't pitch enough, and she goes to all the practices.


Parent of pitcher #6. Why does my DD keep pitching relief innings every tournament. She wants to focus on SS and we gave up on pitching last year. Now Pitcher parent #4 and #5 wont talk to me because my DD is pitching as much as there DD. What's this coach thinking.


Parent of Right Fielder Everybody on this team gets to pitch, and my DD pitched in rec ball. I wonder why she doesn't get a chance to pitch.