High School coach may ruin DD's swing

[shockcoach]

My DD was solidly hitting about 75% of the pitches on an 85mph baseball machine in a ~40 ft cage at 11 yo. 75% (~14 pitches) was all she could hit before her hands stung so bad she had to quit.

You do realize that's the equivalent of hitting a 128.6mph pitch in the pros, don't you?

 

[obbay]

This is interesting. Maybe someone who uses this drill could explain it in some detail to me? I would like to know the right way to do it so I could practice with DD and explain how she can do this without hurting her swing.

The kind of soft toss they're doing doesn't allow for reloading, it requires an abbreviated swing- no load, no toe-touch, no follow-thru. It reminds me of that pitching machine video on YouTube where they have the kid swinging at balls both forward and with his backswing.

The result I've seen is no tilt, minimal lower body involvement, no weight shift, no explosion, elbows to the ball and then a snapping and rolling of the wrists into contact then whip the bat back and do it again. It seems to encourage a swing that looks like the girls upper arms are bound to her sides.

I could see this being more effective if it started slow and gradually speeded up, maintaining all elements of the swing, but this is more willy-nilly.

I don't have confidence in the Freshman coach which is probably a good part of my problem. Also they have kids implementing this drill as well and from what I have seen at early practices, they have no clue as to what they're doing, but think they do because they've been on the team for 3 years.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

A short while ago, I noticed DD's swing had gotten terrible! Very wristy with bat drag evident.
We worked on it to fix it and I was glad to see her doing much better. Today when I picked her up from practice, she told me she realized why her swing had changed. One of the hitting drills they do is rapid soft toss "to develop quick hands". the way she compensates for the rapidity of the balls is by using a shorter, choppier swing.

She can hit fastballs coming in over 60 mph on a machine, so I don't think she needs this.
I think this drill is lame AND I've always professed that it teaches the wrong swing.

1) am I wrong?
2) do you think DD or I can address it with the coach or is this something we should ignore?
3) any recommendations on how to fake her way through this?

She's 15 and this is the Freshman Team. New coach who I know from him coaching the Senior League and he thinks he pretty much knows all there is to know because he sent his DD to hitting instruction when she was young.

This is the problem with the drill; the first one or two swings are OK, but the swings get progressively more top-down and arm-y. The more reps you do in a set, the more you work on a bad swing.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

DD knows that if her coach tells her something that she knows is wrong, she says "OK Coach" and continues to do it the correct way.

The problem with this drill is that you can't fake compliance because you have to do it fast which forces your swing to degrade.

The only way to do this right is to do it slower, and if you do that then you start to look defiant.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I use the drill. I never have kids hit off of a machine. That really causes problems for my teams.

So, I think it is just a matter of preference.

I use the quick hands drill just to have something fun and different and to take the mind out of the hitting equation.

The success or failure of most drills, is the tosser - and not changing your swing.

The problem with this drill is that as fatigue sets in, the swing changes.

This is a bad drill, especially if you do it in sets of 5 to 10.

The only "good" way to do this drill is in sets of 3.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Well, not sure exactly what shes being taught, but the hands should take the shortest path. Fast quick hands to the ball kept close to the body and an explosive swing is the first thing a college coach will notice, this is accomplished with the correct swing path. I can see how that might seem "wristy" if not accustomed to it, but the whip of the bat generates fast bat speed.

In a good swing, the power is generated by the core.

If you look at video of the swings of people who are doing this drill, you will see the core drop out, and the upper body take over, by the third swing or so.

That is by design in some cases, but it is a bad idea.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

This is interesting. Maybe someone who uses this drill could explain it in some detail to me? I would like to know the right way to do it so I could practice with DD and explain how she can do this without hurting her swing.

This is a bad drill and there is no right way to do it.

The least wrong way to do it is to do sets of just 3 or so swings.

The most wrong way to do this drill is to do it in sets of 5 or 10.

 

[Hitter]

I remember the "quick hands" drill. It was a good way to build strength and endurance... along with some nasty blisters from constant friction on my hands. It didn't harm my swing, but that was probably because I was not a power hitter. If someone is used to swinging for HR's, I can see how this drill would counter that swing.

Like Amy said, it's all a matter of preference.

In my opinion....the quick hands toss can and does ruin a good swing!

We have spent a lot of time getting the hitter to establish a good sound foundation from the ground up and then we want to throw balls so quickly that in order to keep up with the person tossing the balls we must limit our load and swing quickly and then reverse quickly to set up again to hit the next ball! Why would we ever want to do that? We do not do it in a game!

Baseball and soft ball are not an endurance sports, it is ballistic, a short burst to get a ball, a quick swing however you can play 3 to 5 games in a day.

What does that have to do with hitting? Thinking slow to load and soft to step on a flexed front knee and hands separating at toe touch and exploding on the ball!

You squeeze the trigger on a gun to keep your sights steady and you do not pull the trigger violently or you will never hit your target!

This was the first drill I stopped doing when I met Crystl in 2002.

Her philosophy is never use a drill that would not promote solid mechanics that would be used in a game.

Find ways to become quicker, faster and stronger for your body type and develop a smooth powerful swing from what you did to become quicker, faster and stronger with your body.

For bat speed, we toss a tennis ball, then a hard ball, then a regular soft ball and then a weighted 10.8 ounce ball and then repeat and this is one cycle. Let the hitter set up each time so pause for the cause!

We want them swinging all out on every ball not just the weighted one and maintain body control!

This is another reason we do the reverse top hand drill as you can clearly see MOST girls give up on the ball at POC and fold up the lead arm and finish very low if they finish at all.

I often have my hitters hit off the tee blind folded and you would be amazed at the difference it makes in their balance techniques.

I have weighted balls that weigh 10.8 and 11.8 ounces and will even change balls and they can feel the difference and I will ask why didn't you swing as hard? You must swing hard on every pitch however your body must be in control and sometimes at 100 % effort you are out of control and maybe you operate better at 80 to 90% for hitting and that is something the hitter must figure out.

Try this....have them get ready to hit and raise up and get on their toes and they should be pretty steady.

Now repeat and have them close their eyes and watch how unsteady they are!

Without a point of reference using the eyes to see the horizon, limits the bodies ability to send signals from the brain to the deep joints and tendons in the body to balance you.

When hitting, even off the tee or soft tossing we incorporate vision and tracking techniques such as looking through the net during the loading phase and then at toe touch moving the position of our nose a little towards the second baseman's normal playing position as a right handed hitter or what we term giving our head a head start while our eyes remain fixed on an object while looking through the net.

The hitter does this at toe touch and then uses the eyes to track the ball on the tee and when the ball is hit there is a white rag glued down inside the tee and they attempt to see it after the ball is hit.

IF they do not use the same mechanics to hit the ball off the tee blinded folded, they seem to swing over the ball when blind folded! I will tell the parents or coaches to watch closely as the hitter may just look forward and never go through the same mechanics as used in the game or use the head as a head start and the position of the nose (actually the head) never moves and they swing over the the ball. Now when I point that out they do the tracking exactly like they would if they could see and they hit the ball.

Think about it when you are walking in the dark the next time. You have become use to doing something without thinking about it and most of us can navigate in the dark because our inner ear sends signals to the brain to the deep joints and tendons in the body and we know where we are in space and time for the most part.

Google vestibular ocular reflex system to gain more of an understanding of how and why it works.

Thanks Howard

 

[mudbug]

You do realize that's the equivalent of hitting a 128.6mph pitch in the pros, don't you?

Actually, I dont think it is. You dont begin a swing the moment the ball leaves a pitchers hand, so you cant assume the reaction time is shortened proportionally to the diffference in distance.

The ~40 means "about". could have been 45, could have been even maybe up to 50 at the high end, but it sure seemed like a shorter than avg cage at that facility.

I have batted in a few cages over the years. And can judge speed fairly OK I think too. Even in old age I can hit in a 75mph cage all day long, its not challenging at all, So it was definitely faster than that.

About 15 yrs ago I lived near a major D1 school whose well known coach owned a commercial batting facility. Some of his players would bat there sometimes on weekends and evenings. Normal cages, probably 50' or so. When the players were there they turned up the speed on a cage for them. I tried 100mph there after a player once, I touched one, literally they were hitting the mat behind me before my swing started. One of the players I watched, a red haired 2B that went on to play MLB, drilled every one.

In any case the point was that cages are EASY to hit. Much easier than a real pitcher. It is easy to adjust timing for fast speeds in cages, performance there is not indicative of a fast swing.

 

[mkral]

Both of my DD's are looking about as good as they ever have thanks to a lot of suggestions and idea's from this board and it's members. My youngest DD has always been a power hitter and has led her team for 3 years. I got her to extention a lot better this year by using the reverse hand drill and have gotten her to use her hips a lot more and she is really looking good. Her swing is fast and powerful.

Well, her travel coach is our HS coach and today my DD was doing tee work with her and the HS coach told her she had go to extention low with both hands on the bat and basically hit her back at extention.

My DD asked me if I would talk to her and tell her that we have been working on hitting this way because she feels a lot stronger finishing her swing like this. I told her I would but not right now. I am not sure how to approach it. I guess I am going to hit it head on and ask the coach to let my DD fail this way. If she doesn't then let her hit like she is. But if she does fail then I will agree to change her. Not sure how else to approach it.