Hemphill home run

[Comp]

I believe his last sentence is in error. 8-7-E is in regard to assisting a runner during live ball in which case the ball remains live and the runner is simply called out. The exception is also in relation to assisting a runner during a live ball, but, it is referencing what happens if that assistance is on a runner who has passed the plate and is then assisted. In that case the ball now becomes dead and would be the only situation where physical assistance is a dead ball.

 

[MTR]

I believe his last sentence is in error. 8-7-E is in regard to assisting a runner during live ball in which case the ball remains live and the runner is simply called out. The exception is also in relation to assisting a runner during a live ball, but, it is referencing what happens if that assistance is on a runner who has passed the plate and is then assisted. In that case the ball now becomes dead and would be the only situation where physical assistance is a dead ball.

And I believe this sentence in the first paragraph offers context: The ball by definition is out of play but runners have live ball base running responsibilities.

 

[Comp]

Except I see that statement nowhere in the rule book, and the rule he cites as the basis for his ruling 8-7-E is only in reference to assistance during a live ball.

 

[djcarter1966]

From USA Softball:


There has been a lot of discussion about the SEC College missed home plate call. Here is the USA Softball comments from Directior of Umpires Kevin Ryan:
We have received a lot of questions and concerns on this play. It appears the NCAA rule and ours have some subtle differences. First in Fast Pitch we do not
consider an over the fence home run a four base ward. The ball by definition is out of play but runners have live ball base running responsibilities. On this play
several rules come into play.
Rule 8, Section 7I: (Dead Ball Appeal) Once the ball has been returned to the infield and time is called, any infielder with or without possession of the ball,
may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. No runner may leave a base during this period as the ball
remains dead until the next pitch.
a) If the ball leaves live ball territory, a dead ball appeal cannot be made until completion of all legal advancement by base runners.
b) If the pitcher has possession of the ball and is in contact with the pitchers plate when making a verbal appeal, no illegal pitch is called.
c) If “play ball” has been declared by the umpire and the pitcher then requests an appeal, the umpire shall call “time” and allow the appeal process.

Rule 8, Section 5G[2] Exception: When the ball is live and is overthrown or is blocked
Effect:
1 All runners shall be awarded two bases.
2 The award shall be governed by the position of the runners when the ball left the fielder’s hand.
Note: Runners must return to touch a base missed or left too soon. When two runners are between the same two bases, the award is based
on the position of the lead runner. Once a base runner advances to the next awarded base, the runner may no longer return to touch any base
missed or left too soon.
Exception: When the ball becomes dead, runners must return to touch a base missed or left too soon if they have advanced, touched, and are a
base beyond the base missed or left too soon.
Note: Runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base running responsibilities. A runner shall not be declared out if a fielder deliberately
carries or throws the ball into dead ball territory to prevent that runner from returning to a base missed or left too soon. Once a runner leaves live ball
territory they cannot return to touch any base missed or left too soon.
Rule 8 Section 7E: When any offensive team member, other than another runner, physically assists a runner while the ball is live.
Effect:
1 The ball remains live.
2 The runner being assisted is out.
Exception – Section E: After a runner has scored and missed home plate and then is physically assisted back to home plate:
1 The ball is dead.
2 The runner is out and the run is nullified.
We do not differentiate a dead ball appeal when the ball is out of play or the umpire calls time. In neither case does the ball need
to be put back into play. Because the runner has live ball base running responsibilities missing home plate falls into that category.
By rule the umpire should give her time to come back and touch home plate, time is pure judgement on the umpire part. Once the
umpire decides she has had the time and the defense appeals with or without a ball verbally that runner can be called out. So we would
have had an out in that play for missing home plate.

However another thing overlooked in this play was the assisting the runner to go back and touch home plate by the first base coach.
In our rule we would have an out for that also as we state in Rule 8, Section 7E Exception. I believe in NCAA assisting a runner in a dead ball situation is only a warning.

Well NO "we" would not have an out if the UMPIRES judgement was she still had time to come back...the only time the judgement of the umpire is mute is if the runner enters dead ball territory.

Now the first base coach assist is also a UMPIRES judgement call while we can all pretty much agree this was an assist it's not our call.

Neither of these decision would be protestable under the rules, as far as I can tell.

So USA softball is simply stating what in their opinion proper umpire judgement should have been in this instance....unless I missed something.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

From USA Softball:
...
However another thing overlooked in this play was the assisting the runner to go back and touch home plate by the first base coach.
In our rule we would have an out for that also as we state in Rule 8, Section 7E Exception. I believe in NCAA assisting a runner in a dead ball situation is only a warning.

NCAA rule is specific to out-of-the-park HRs and it's a warning on just the first occurrence.

9.6.3 Offensive team personnel shall neither interfere with a runner(s) who is legally running the bases on a dead-ball award until the player(s) contacts home plate nor with the umpire’s ability to see that all bases are properly touched.
9.6.3.1 Offensive team personnel, other than base coaches and base runner(s), shall not touch a runner(s) until the player(s) contacts home plate.
9.6.3.2 Offensive team personnel shall congregate only in foul territory around home plate to congratulate the runner(s).
EFFECT—In all cases, for a first offense of Rule 9.6.3, the umpire shall issue a warning to the offending team. If a subsequent offense of Rule 9.6.3 occurs that involves touching a runner, the player touched is immediately declared out and credited with the last base legally touched at the time of interference. If a subsequent offense of Rule 9.6.3 occurs that involves being in fair territory, the batter-runner is declared out and credited with the last base legally touched at the time team personnel entered fair territory.
A.R. 9.6.3: In the bottom of the seventh inning of a tie game with a base runner on second base, the batter grounds the ball to the shortstop, who throws the ball over the first baseman’s head and out of play. As the base runner is rounding third base, for the walk-off winning run, the dugout clears and players slap high fives along the third-base line. RULING: For a first violation of Rule 9.6.3, issue a warning to the offending team. If a warning has already been issued, the base runner is out and credited with reaching only third base. The batter is placed on the base legally touched at the time of the interference.

12.2.14 When, after hitting an out-of-the-park home run, providing her team previously was warned under Rule 9.6.3, the individual is touched by any member of the offensive team other than the base coaches, before touching home plate.
12.2.15 When, after hitting an out-of-the-park home run, providing her team previously was warned under Rule 9.6.3, a member of the offensive team enters fair territory to congratulate the batter before she touches home plate.
EFFECT—(12.2.14 and 12.2.15)—The ball is dead. The batter is out and credited with the last base legally touched at the time of the interference. Each other base runner must return to the last base legally touched at the time of the touching by her own team or when team personnel entered fair territory to congratulate a teammate.

 

[MTR]

NCAA rule is specific to out-of-the-park HRs and it's a warning on just the first occurrence.

9.6.3 Offensive team personnel shall neither interfere with a runner(s) who is legally running the bases on a dead-ball award until the player(s) contacts home plate nor with the umpire’s ability to see that all bases are properly touched.
9.6.3.1 Offensive team personnel, other than base coaches and base runner(s), shall not touch a runner(s) until the player(s) contacts home plate.
9.6.3.2 Offensive team personnel shall congregate only in foul territory around home plate to congratulate the runner(s).
EFFECT—In all cases, for a first offense of Rule 9.6.3, the umpire shall issue a warning to the offending team. If a subsequent offense of Rule 9.6.3 occurs that involves touching a runner, the player touched is immediately declared out and credited with the last base legally touched at the time of interference. If a subsequent offense of Rule 9.6.3 occurs that involves being in fair territory, the batter-runner is declared out and credited with the last base legally touched at the time team personnel entered fair territory.
A.R. 9.6.3: In the bottom of the seventh inning of a tie game with a base runner on second base, the batter grounds the ball to the shortstop, who throws the ball over the first baseman’s head and out of play. As the base runner is rounding third base, for the walk-off winning run, the dugout clears and players slap high fives along the third-base line. RULING: For a first violation of Rule 9.6.3, issue a warning to the offending team. If a warning has already been issued, the base runner is out and credited with reaching only third base. The batter is placed on the base legally touched at the time of the interference.

12.2.14 When, after hitting an out-of-the-park home run, providing her team previously was warned under Rule 9.6.3, the individual is touched by any member of the offensive team other than the base coaches, before touching home plate.
12.2.15 When, after hitting an out-of-the-park home run, providing her team previously was warned under Rule 9.6.3, a member of the offensive team enters fair territory to congratulate the batter before she touches home plate.
EFFECT—(12.2.14 and 12.2.15)—The ball is dead. The batter is out and credited with the last base legally touched at the time of the interference. Each other base runner must return to the last base legally touched at the time of the touching by her own team or when team personnel entered fair territory to congratulate a teammate.

But this has nothing to do with assisting a runner which is 8.7.E's topic. IMO, the rule in most sets is screwed up and should be changed to remove the live ball requirement

 

[MTR]

Well NO "we" would not have an out if the UMPIRES judgement was she still had time to come back...the only time the judgement of the umpire is mute is if the runner enters dead ball territory.

Yet the USA Softball Director of Umpires just provided an interpretation that says you do.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

But this has nothing to do with assisting a runner which is 8.7.E's topic.

Irrelevant. I clearly responded to USA Softball's comment about NCAA's dead ball rule with the actual rules.

 

[djcarter1966]

Yet the USA Softball Director of Umpires just provided an interpretation that says you do.

Well..."By rule the umpire should give her time to come back and touch home plate, time is pure judgement on the umpire part. Once the
umpire decides she has had the time and the defense appeals with or without a ball verbally that runner can be called out. So we would
have had an out in that play for missing home plate."

^^^^^ Exactly "we [USA Softball]" might have an out but the umpire is still 100% correct in using his judgement to call her safe

 

[MTR]

Irrelevant. I clearly responded to USA Softball's comment about NCAA's dead ball rule with the actual rules.

Yes, I was referring to the fact that Kevin's comment included 8.7.E in comparison which is assistance. The rule you cited doesn't mention assistance, but was developed to keep players and coaches away from the active runners until they have scored and has nothing to do with assisting a runner which is why I don't believe it has anything to do with USA's interpretation.