Hand on Top?

[Ken B]

Ken,

"...I've observed many very good pitchers cock their arms as if trying to get over the ball around 11 o'clock."

Even though it appears that they are "trying" to get over the ball around 11 o'clock, to see if they are actually trying to do that, I think these still-shots of them at 11 should be compared to a later point, like 9 o'clock. At 9 o'clock I speculate that it won't look like they are "trying" to do that quite as much. Can you generate the 9 o'clock along side the 11 o'clock?

8 o'clock is my magic moment... 11 o'clock is the question...

 

[Ken B]

Whether they are trying to get their hand on top of the ball or not... their movement intelligence takes over for them... and that hand "reloads".

Some of that 'turn-out' is the result of the shoulders momentum rearward... followed by the countered 'reload' as a result of the subsequent leverage the athlete experiences upon contact/anticipation in contacting the ground.

If a kid understands how to load the whip over top, and whip from 9 o'clock... I don't get too worried about turnout. I was just talking to Butter about this kind of stuff... relating to hip snap. Interestingly, the hip snap is loading at the same time the hand is reloading. I don't want to reboot that thread... but it's impressive to note what compensations the body will learn to create (in movement) when it has sound movement patterns in place. Adaptive responses. Many people swear it's a muscle... just one... but as I get older (hopefully wiser)... it is quite evident that muscle coordination/strength (for the purpose of sports performance) is a result of quality movement patterns... not isolation.

SO many gems in this post!

 

[Ken B]

Whether they are trying to get their hand on top of the ball...

Do you believe this is their intent?

If a kid understands how to load the whip over top, and whip from 9 o'clock...

What is the thought, or feel?

Seriously, just fly out to the PacNW for a week and SHOW me...

 

[go4fpsb]

Ken, IMO the process of the turn out at the top of the circle is the sequence of pronation of the forearm at the top of the circle then supination at 9 o'clock then pronation at release. I have had pitchers either turn the ball out at the top or show the ball to the catcher during the entire circle. The pronation then supination from 12 to 9 creates a negative move or stretch and fire type of action that can create speed. I'd be curious if this is a teach with these pitchers instructors or a natural move for them. Interesting thread Ken.

 

[Buttermaker]

Whether they are trying to get their hand on top of the ball or not... their movement intelligence takes over for them... and that hand "reloads".

Some of that 'turn-out' is the result of the shoulders momentum rearward... followed by the countered 'reload' as a result of the subsequent leverage the athlete experiences upon contact/anticipation in contacting the ground.

If a kid understands how to load the whip over top, and whip from 9 o'clock... I don't get too worried about turnout. I was just talking to Butter about this kind of stuff... relating to hip snap. Interestingly, the hip snap is loading at the same time the hand is reloading. I don't want to reboot that thread... but it's impressive to note what compensations the body will learn to create (in movement) when it has sound movement patterns in place. Adaptive responses. Many people swear it's a muscle... just one... but as I get older (hopefully wiser)... it is quite evident that muscle coordination/strength (for the purpose of sports performance) is a result of quality movement patterns... not isolation.

Wait? Is the core one muscle?

I have a former HS player who pitches d1 and when she came back to give our current HS pitcher some tips we talked about the change up she threw and how she wanted to get on top of the ball. Video revealed no such thing was occurring.

But, when you do try and get on top (assuming you have some sort of IR mechanics in place) it feels like you loading your arm even more than just getting under the ball from 12 to release. Now, you can say this is just allowing the hand to reload and that's perfectly fine by me. Maybe these pitchers feel this is the way to create some momentum for whatever spin they are trying to impart on the ball or maybe it's just some of the old teaching they may have still in their DNA (HE mechanics). Maybe it's the brains way to fixing sub par movement (protect the throwing shoulder?). Turning out at the top does seem to lock in the throwing side scapula more than not turning out. And if the throwing side scapula is retracted it makes it a little easier to coordinate adduction of the glove side just through the recruitment of the serratus muscles amongst others like the external obliques and internal obliques (which may lead to hip snap).

Or I could be totally off my rocker...

 

[corlay]

Isn't this a re-hashed topic?
It seems like it was years ago that this type of "reloading" action from 11:00-8:00 was identified in Ueno's motion,
most prominently.

I do not think "getting the hand on top" is an intentional consideration.
(I actually don't see the hand getting on top at all in these examples, save for maybe Pauly. And her's is probably a change up.
They look more to me like "Hillhouse 3B" orientation. Lots of pitchers get this orientation when throwing the Drop,
and not as much on a curve or rise...)

 

[jryan15]

Whether they are trying to get their hand on top of the ball or not... their movement intelligence takes over for them... and that hand "reloads".

Some of that 'turn-out' is the result of the shoulders momentum rearward... followed by the countered 'reload' as a result of the subsequent leverage the athlete experiences upon contact/anticipation in contacting the ground.

If a kid understands how to load the whip over top, and whip from 9 o'clock... I don't get too worried about turnout. I was just talking to Butter about this kind of stuff... relating to hip snap. Interestingly, the hip snap is loading at the same time the hand is reloading. I don't want to reboot that thread... but it's impressive to note what compensations the body will learn to create (in movement) when it has sound movement patterns in place. Adaptive responses. Many people swear it's a muscle... just one... but as I get older (hopefully wiser)... it is quite evident that muscle coordination/strength (for the purpose of sports performance) is a result of quality movement patterns... not isolation.

This sentence is more than a little understated.

 

[javasource]

Do you believe this is their intent?

For some it is, no doubt. There is plenty of instruction out there that has them doing so... but it's interesting to see what their body decides to do as they improve over the years.

What is the thought, or feel?

In the context of what I was writing... the thought is to create a hook... and the thought is to train with palm-up. IMO, this approach will allow for a kid to develop better movement patterns sooner... rather than cross your fingers and hope they figure it out for themselves.

The feel... for the hook... is to come out straight to the catcher, and at 3... SLIGHTLY elevate the elbow. Helps the shoulder do what it does... most efficiently.

The feel... for the whip... well... John sums that up quite effectively in the ADduction video. No reason to steal his thunder...

Seriously, just fly out to the PacNW for a week and SHOW me...

Might be headed out to Northern Cal this spring/summer... as for WA... not really sure.

Ken, IMO the process of the turn out at the top of the circle is the sequence of pronation of the forearm at the top of the circle then supination at 9 o'clock then pronation at release. I have had pitchers either turn the ball out at the top or show the ball to the catcher during the entire circle. The pronation then supination from 12 to 9 creates a negative move or stretch and fire type of action that can create speed. I'd be curious if this is a teach with these pitchers instructors or a natural move for them. Interesting thread Ken.

Oddly... it's external rotation of the humerus that puts that hand out to 3rd... part of the whole scapulohumeral rhythm. Stuff always confused me, too

I hope it's not a teach... whenever a kid performs a movement conciously they can at times get obsessed with CREATING energy - and it's amazing how much further that gets them from the end goal. I find that when we direct them towards TRANSFERRING energy, they really start to blossom. In my mind, tranferring is less about movement, and more about stability.

On that topic... when I watched John's ADduction video the first time, I noticed that many people saw creation of energy... but he's very careful to point out in that video that she was rotating too much at times (if I recall). IMO, he's teaching her to better transfer energy.

Wait? Is the core one muscle?

My friend, I wasn't referring to you in the context of those that embrace developing one muscle. Just saying that many people get obsessed with developing a muscle... rather than the movement. Not referencing ANYONE on here... really. That's more of a hit on the 80-90's desire to be Mr. Universe (the look of the muscle, rather than the movement quality)... and how much that influenced training programs in the years that followed (even now).

I have a former HS player who pitches d1 and when she came back to give our current HS pitcher some tips we talked about the change up she threw and how she wanted to get on top of the ball. Video revealed no such thing was occurring.

Some of the best videos I've watched on DFP in the last few years are from your students. You know your stuff - and obviously have a way in getting it out of them. It's pretty crazy how a developed movement pattern will always win out. Definitely varies from kid to kid, but I see what you're talking about all the time, too.

But, when you do try and get on top (assuming you have some sort of IR mechanics in place) it feels like you loading your arm even more than just getting under the ball from 12 to release. Now, you can say this is just allowing the hand to reload and that's perfectly fine by me. Maybe these pitchers feel this is the way to create some momentum for whatever spin they are trying to impart on the ball or maybe it's just some of the old teaching they may have still in their DNA (HE mechanics). Maybe it's the brains way to fixing sub par movement (protect the throwing shoulder?).

The assumption is that you have IR understanding in place, for sure. I'm not saying that it's JUST allowing... I'm saying that one OR two things happen: 1) they were trained to get palm-up and whip the ball well... and/or 2) the clockwise rotation (RHP) of the shoulder line continues to "spin" a little as they pass over top, which "naturally" puts the palm to 3rd.

Case and point... put your hand in show it position (palm to catcher) with your shoulders at 45-degrees. Leaving your arm COMPLETELY still, rotate your shoulders to about 70-80 degrees... and then look at your palm position. In my opinion, the body senses that unconsciously... and then "reloads" in anticipation for optimal energy CREATION/TRANSFER during the whip.

Turning out at the top does seem to lock in the throwing side scapula more than not turning out. And if the throwing side scapula is retracted it makes it a little easier to coordinate adduction of the glove side just through the recruitment of the serratus muscles amongst others like the external obliques and internal obliques (which may lead to hip snap).

Or I could be totally off my rocker...

Admittedly, I'm a little uncertain on this. I get what you're saying... but the movement happens so quickly... that it seems to me it might be more about the body performing the movement safely. The ER that takes place in the humerus is what turns the palm out over-top... so perhaps we're on the same page here. 70 to 100% of the kids that have shoulder pathology have some sort of scapular issues... some refer to that as "SICK". Anyway... I guess I'm more focused on asking them to create efficient movement overtop... early ER (like 2 o'clock, by SLIGHTLY lifting the elbow), hand in-line or slightly outside the shoulder, and no emphasis on absurd elevation/rotation. I don't want forced movement when the humerus is in an elevated position... as there is so much susceptibility to injury in that complex at that time. Not pulling the injury card on you, Butter... I think we actually are on the same page here... just going about with different descriptions.

 

[Classof2020]

Oh Ken OILF would be so proud. She loved to point out hand position like this in stills to show that I/R was not real . . . oh OILF where for art thou???

 

[javasource]

Oh Ken OILF would be so proud. She loved to point out hand position like this in stills to show that I/R was not real . . . oh OILF where for art thou???

But flies an eagle flight, bold and forth on, Leaving no tract behind.