- Dec 16, 2010
- 172
- 18
Hand on Top?
- Thread starter Ken B
- Start date
Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch
Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.
- May 3, 2014
- 2,149
- 83
For some it is, no doubt. There is plenty of instruction out there that has them doing so... but it's interesting to see what their body decides to do as they improve over the years.
In the context of what I was writing... the thought is to create a hook... and the thought is to train with palm-up. IMO, this approach will allow for a kid to develop better movement patterns sooner... rather than cross your fingers and hope they figure it out for themselves.
The feel... for the hook... is to come out straight to the catcher, and at 3... SLIGHTLY elevate the elbow. Helps the shoulder do what it does... most efficiently.
The feel... for the whip... well... John sums that up quite effectively in the ADduction video. No reason to steal his thunder...
Might be headed out to Northern Cal this spring/summer... as for WA... not really sure.
Oddly... it's external rotation of the humerus that puts that hand out to 3rd... part of the whole scapulohumeral rhythm. Stuff always confused me, too
I hope it's not a teach... whenever a kid performs a movement conciously they can at times get obsessed with CREATING energy - and it's amazing how much further that gets them from the end goal. I find that when we direct them towards TRANSFERRING energy, they really start to blossom. In my mind, tranferring is less about movement, and more about stability.
On that topic... when I watched John's ADduction video the first time, I noticed that many people saw creation of energy... but he's very careful to point out in that video that she was rotating too much at times (if I recall). IMO, he's teaching her to better transfer energy.
My friend, I wasn't referring to you in the context of those that embrace developing one muscle. Just saying that many people get obsessed with developing a muscle... rather than the movement. Not referencing ANYONE on here... really. That's more of a hit on the 80-90's desire to be Mr. Universe (the look of the muscle, rather than the movement quality)... and how much that influenced training programs in the years that followed (even now).
Some of the best videos I've watched on DFP in the last few years are from your students. You know your stuff - and obviously have a way in getting it out of them. It's pretty crazy how a developed movement pattern will always win out. Definitely varies from kid to kid, but I see what you're talking about all the time, too.
The assumption is that you have IR understanding in place, for sure. I'm not saying that it's JUST allowing... I'm saying that one OR two things happen: 1) they were trained to get palm-up and whip the ball well... and/or 2) the clockwise rotation (RHP) of the shoulder line continues to "spin" a little as they pass over top, which "naturally" puts the palm to 3rd.
Case and point... put your hand in show it position (palm to catcher) with your shoulders at 45-degrees. Leaving your arm COMPLETELY still, rotate your shoulders to about 70-80 degrees... and then look at your palm position. In my opinion, the body senses that unconsciously... and then "reloads" in anticipation for optimal energy CREATION/TRANSFER during the whip.
Admittedly, I'm a little uncertain on this. I get what you're saying... but the movement happens so quickly... that it seems to me it might be more about the body performing the movement safely. The ER that takes place in the humerus is what turns the palm out over-top... so perhaps we're on the same page here. 70 to 100% of the kids that have shoulder pathology have some sort of scapular issues... some refer to that as "SICK". Anyway... I guess I'm more focused on asking them to create efficient movement overtop... early ER (like 2 o'clock, by SLIGHTLY lifting the elbow), hand in-line or slightly outside the shoulder, and no emphasis on absurd elevation/rotation. I don't want forced movement when the humerus is in an elevated position... as there is so much susceptibility to injury in that complex at that time. Not pulling the injury card on you, Butter... I think we actually are on the same page here... just going about with different descriptions.
No worries. And thanks for the compliments. The players deserve the accolades I just tell them shirt and they do the work.
Getting back to the adduction piece. If a pitcher has it and is timed really well maybe the feel of "getting on top" is as you say an adaptive response. But, the adduction to me is so much more than just bringing the arms into the body. It is also the scapular retraction piece on both side (creasing the back along the spine). For some the scapula may retract on the throwing side but the juice and easy throwing really comes when the glove side is retracting as well.
javasource
6-4-3 = 2
We (fastpitch foundations plug) refer to what your describing as bow-flex-bow. Definitely something reserved for those that already "get it" IMO.
I just want pitchers I work with to be obsessed with transferring energy on the back half of the circle... less so "creating"... as the latter usually produces undesired movement.
I just want pitchers I work with to be obsessed with transferring energy on the back half of the circle... less so "creating"... as the latter usually produces undesired movement.
- May 3, 2014
- 2,149
- 83
FBF is an OH staple as well. Good stuff. How they move from 6-12 is something we try and focus on to set up 12 to release.
- Feb 7, 2013
- 3,188
- 48
Very important point by Java. I have always thought that from around 12:00 to 9:00 that the arm "drops into the slot" and the hand will slightly rotate back to more palm to the sky immediately before it internally rotates into release (i.e. "Reloading"). The best I have seen is Ueno's arm/hand at 9:00.
javasource
6-4-3 = 2
The lagging hand position is intensified as it moves onto the angular momentum plane of the more proximal segment. Two planes... become one.
- May 3, 2014
- 2,149
- 83
The lagging hand position is intensified as it moves onto the angular momentum plane of the more proximal segment. Two planes... become one.
Anyone see any similarities?
The lagging hand position is intensified as it moves onto the angular momentum plane of the more proximal segment. Two planes... become one.
I think that some of this ties into what I've discussed about reward resistance and how it influences hip rotation. In this specific example, I think it is worth considering that the change in planes could be the result of scapular retraction (part of reward resistance / pullbacks).
It can also be seen that her hips are rotating closed as the scap pullback occurs. This is similar to what I tried to discuss in the "pitchers hips?" thread recently.
Not to dredge up that thread, but I still think there is very similar scap-hip-rear leg movement patterns between hitting, throwing, and pitching.
Last edited:
Here's an interesting experiment. Stand a little open to the catcher 15 to 45 degrees (think even 0 will work). Now just do some windmill arm circles without any scap involvement. You'll probably not feel any hip recruitment (it's just arm movements).
Then do some arm circles and do a scap pullback as you pass by 12 o'clock. Maybe it's just me, but I feel significant hip engagement counteracting the movement. My hips start to close as my scap pulls back.
Last edited:
