Front side resistance question

[jryan15]

Don't mean to side track this at all, but I think it's pertinent. What do you guys think about the possible relationship with the front foot being pointed more forward and the struggle with getting enough front side resistance. This is something I'm working on my own DD who gets squishy and doesn't get great brush. My theory I'm working on is if it's harder to firm up with knee point more toward catcher and if the foot pointing more toward the catcher is also forcing body closed sooner and decreasing brush . . . still a work in progress, but these comparison shots were interesting along with my thinking.

And on a complete side note, starting out a full 8 inches in front of the rubber is nice if you can get away with it

Co2012 you have made a great observation in your pitcher's front side resistance (link to her thread BTW). Notice the difference in her collapsing knee vs. the college level girls:

I don't think you need to change her front foot angle, instead you could probably focus harder on pushing back with her front leg as she plants. I'm glad you brought this topic up as this clip set will be good for my kid as well!

 

[Classof2020]

Thanks Jryan. I may be grasping at straws after feeling like we've been "working" on that dang front leg for 3 years. She lands and then straightens it after a winter of focusing on it indoors in front of a mirror. Looking at the top 6-8 HS pitchers in my area (mostly college committed, throwing about 8-10 mph faster than she is) as well as on here, I do tend to see a firmer front leg with more of an angle to the foot on a LOT of them, and thought it couldn't hurt to try if it's something that triggered her to land firmer instead of bent and then straightening. And then hoping that would help her not to close quite as early allowing more brush. We (she'll) keep working and try to have some video soon.

 

[FastPitchCat]

I like the stride foot around 45, but if there was going to be a deviation one way or the other, I'd prefer an orientation more towards the catcher.

Personally, I think it is easier to get front side resistance with the stride foot orientation pointed more towards the catcher. When the stride foot is more sideways than straight, many have a habit of kicking the butt out, bending at the waist, and throwing with more of a bowling motion.

to be continued...

DD lands at about 45 degrees with a little bend to soak up the impact, then firming up right after.
i think landing at 90 would be very taxing to the knee.

i don't know how monica abbott does it. She lands straight to the catcher and almost straight legged --> i guess to prevent the knee from bending forward naturally. that knee must take a beating

 

[knightsb]

it couldn't hurt to try if it's something that triggered her to land firmer instead of bent and then straightening.

I think it IS land slightly bent then firm up.

Earlier I posted think of an accordion, the back side pushing -----> <----- the front side firming/pushing back.

Things to try:
Throw without the ball focusing on the firming action.
If she can't get that, then go at 50% without the ball.
Have her throw at 50% effort with focus on firming up.
Do a rocking T drill starting balanced, then weight back, weight forward and firm in to the pitch.

I'm a believer in subtracting (taking away movements and backing off effort/slowing down) until you can get it right, then adding back until it comes together in a full pitch.

Mike Roberts PC at Washington told DD's group, "if you can do it correctly going 50%, what makes you think you can do it at 100%".

 

[knightsb]

I would caution against considering the front side foot angle as a teaching element. The front side foot/leg turn results from the back leg/hip turn which results from the corresponding arm/scap/back pullback of the throwing arm.

The front side foot/leg angle should be a no teach for the most part... I think if you are having to teach front side turning, there is probably a problem upstream somewhere with her drive and rear hip turn.

Notice the rear hip reacting to the arm pullback, also notice the front leg reacting to the rear hip:

A slightly different take, is the rear hip reacting to the arm pullback, or is it leading the arm pullback?

IOW, does opening of the hips lead the shoulder's opening, followed by the closing of the hips leading the arm whip portion of the pitch?

 

[Ken B]

I feel like the torso opens as a result of extension of the limbs, then closes as a result of adduction of the limbs and plant.

(Is there any way to slow that Osorio gif down? )

 

[jryan15]

A slightly different take, is the rear hip reacting to the arm pullback, or is it leading the arm pullback?

IOW, does opening of the hips lead the shoulder's opening, followed by the closing of the hips leading the arm whip portion of the pitch?

I'll make some comments, and then I will try and refrain from beating the horse any further. If you guys still disagree, it's cool. I'll work on ya again in another 6 months.

It's gonna be tough to prove visually... Even with the golden Amanda clip, events happen so closely that it is hard to tell which happened first.

The biggest opening of Amanda's hips happens as part of her stride, but I think that her arm/shoulder/back movement below is triggering the final pullback of her rear hip... Can't you just feel how engaged her entire shoulder complex is in this clip? I don't feel like she is rotating her hips open at all. It feels to me like she is powerfully pulling her shoulder back and her hip is rolling open as a result.

Study the creases in her shirt. They seem to tell a story. They follow her shoulder movement. They disappear at 12... I don't think they would move that way if her hips were leading.

I think her scap/back (lats, etc) are triggering the closing segment of her hip movement below. (side comment, we could all agree that it's definitely before front foot plant.)

I bring this topic up a lot as it relates to the revelations that I've had with hitting mechanics. I've studied this specific movement pattern in excrutiating detail over the years. To me it is as plain as day that when I swing in the pattern, my rear hip reacts to my back/scap pull back... I think that even a high profile member of the DFP hitting community would agree with me on this now.

Here is an experiment for a Right hander:

1. Stand on your right leg with arms out to side (palms down)
2. Do a good hard scap pull back*
3. Observe how your right hip reacts to the movement (it should punch forward)
*Make sure you're not just moving your arm back, be sure to use your scap correctly!
​

They interconnected. When you over hand throw, do you rotate your hips, or do they just move in reaction to an arm pullback (this assumes the thrower, throws at a high level)?

If yes, why should we expect pitching to be different?

 

[jryan15]

I feel like the torso opens as a result of extension of the limbs, then closes as a result of adduction of the limbs and plant.

(Is there any way to slow that Osorio gif down? )

Great post... Lol, you just said in a handful of words what I just spent an hour writing and GIF'ing...

 

[Classof2020]

Not to detract at all from the point your making cause I think this is a pretty powerful argument you are putting forth. But I do have a side questions about the front foot still. So to me in the second figure you can see the toe start to head down toward the ground like it's looking for the ground that it's knows is going to be there soon. Now IF that foot was seeking to land more toward the catcher doesn't it seem that the entire leg would slightly follow that direction, opening up the thigh, possibly pulling the torso with it and then making it harder to drop the arm down into the correct slot? I mean this is the only angle I'm really suggesting for my DD or maybe a couple degrees more instead of mostly straight. I just don't see how that landing is all gravity and completely incidental to what is happening up above in the body.

 

[jryan15]

I see what you are saying. I do think that there is an element of the foot plantar flexing to find the ground, but I don't think at the high level the pitchers are leading with their front foot to control leg orientation though. I think the front leg IR is a reaction to the pullback and diagonal stretch that is occurring.

I'm really glad you brought this up as it's led me to further review of something I've been thinking and praying about lately. Pitchers with an explosive drive are better able to find time to do this pulling back while others do not. It seems like the scap is a key element in the process.

A: Pitchers like Amanda pull back their shoulder complex in this phase:

B: Other pitchers are just moving their arms around the circle:

Pitcher A (Amanda) is pulling her entire shoulder complex back (scap pullback). This scap pullback creates diagonal stretch that forces front leg and rear leg IR. This will orient her for plant and do a lot of other awesome things.

Pitcher B is only circling her arm. Her arm will push her scap (shoulder complex) back, but it will not create diagonal stretch. Therefore her front and rear legs don't tend to IR as well or as early as pitcher A. Pitcher B likely manually IR's her front leg to orient herself into foot plant.

FWIW the gif that I have of you pitcher blows past the stretching elements. Maybe if you have another video source or could get a higher frame count version, we could do some further analysis or side by side comparison.